ICLOK
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16 years ago
Sorry re the goat thing... couldn't resist after our chat the other day... I am still wetting myself at the thought of goats carrying huge bags of black Tin off Dartmoor. :lol:

I had heard re the headstones from some guy who used to work at Lowes.. much to my surprise.

Thanks for the rock refresher...

So I wonder when the fine cut roof slates we all know really first appeared...?

My first house had to be re roofed and I got tons of slates off the old Heanor pictures during demolition... they were great and cost £1000 second hand... the condition was wonderful as when put on the pictures they had been tar pitched!!


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Digit
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16 years ago
There are 2 slates in the Segontium Roman Fort Museum (Caernarfon) that are supposed to have been used as Roman roof slates at the fort before being recycled into an inscription related to "drains" in the third century. From memory they are about 1/2 inch thick. Early slates were held in place with wooden pegs not nails, slate can have very sharp edges so thin slates would probably cut through wooden pegs fairly quickly so even if you could make them you probably didn't want to.
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ICLOK
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16 years ago
Thats an interesting point, any evidence of Romans (and earlier) slate workings/use?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Digit
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16 years ago
The 2 Roman slates reputedly came from the Cilgwyn - Moel Tryfan area but I think that is simply based on looking at the colour and texture of the slate. No evidence on the ground but you wouldn't really expect any, it would be somewhere where the slate was obvious and easy to get at and its probably now a point in mid air somewhere in a big quarry hole/excavation.
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Thrutch
16 years ago
I visited the church at Twyford recently - south of Derby and sited very close to the bank of the River Trent. The slate gravestones there were explained in terms of a local man having interests in mining in Wales and navigation rights on the Trent. I must go back and take a closer look, as this slate must have been transported around Scotland or the South Coast and then up the Trent (if pre Trent and Mersey Canal). It also seems to be very local - restricted to a tiny village.
Another local family, Hudson, were said to have connections with the Hudson Bay --.
It is also amazing how the buildings in Twyford and other riverside villages around there (Barrow on Trent, Swarkestone -) do not flood - the water gets close but the builders knew how close it would get!
ICLOK
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16 years ago
I must go soon Thrutch and see not only Twyford but Anchor Church (Sougher keeps telling me to go)... I'll look for the headstones at twyford... strange grouping that as like you say shipping slate there would have been a long journey.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
carnkie
16 years ago
Regarding Cornish slate I’m not aware of any activity during the Roman period but certainly it was on the go in medieval times.

"The increasing demand from the twelfth century for strong, long-lasting and inflammable roofing materials resulted in slate and stone becoming sought-after commodities. Both documentary and archaeological evidence show the use of slate in a medieval context at Launceston, Lostwithiel, Stratton, Restormel Castle, Bodmin, Lamanna near Looe, Tintagel and Trevalga. An export trade developed and Cornish slate was transported by boat along the south coast. In 1314, it was reported that buildings at Winchester Castle covered with 'Cornwall stone' called 'Esclate' had been damaged in a storm, while 2,000 'sclate de Cornwayall', bought at a cost of ten shillings, were used on a house in the New Forest in 1363. There is no evidence to indicate from whence this blue slate emanated, but by the fourteenth century, a number of quarries were being worked not only at Delabole, but berween Golant and Fowey, at Bodmalgan (probably near Lostwithiel), and at Tintagel, where manorial accounts record a workman 'digging slate' to provide the material to repair the roof at the castle in 1305. In 1468-9, slate was being sent to Launceston from the parish of Trevalga, adjacent to the parish of Tintagel, on the north coast."
(extract from Catherine Lorigans excellent book “Delabole”, ISBN 978-0-9554792-0-5)

A paper that covers the subject:
E.M. Jope and G.C. Dunnings, ‘The use of blue slate for roofing in Medieval England,’
The Antiquaries Journal 34 (1954)

This photo shows the cliff qarries near Tintagel.
🔗Bagalow-Slate-Quarry-User-Album-Image-001[linkphoto]Bagalow-Slate-Quarry-User-Album-Image-001[/linkphoto][/link]
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
sougher
16 years ago
Iclok - Just another memory of when we used to cycle (then I had a "sit up and beg" one which had a back pedal brake, which was later changed to a Dawes Tartan Clubman with benelux gears! - after then we cycled off to Buxton instead, via Ashbourne, Leek and Axe Edge!) down in South Derbyshire in an evening in the late 40's, as well as visiting Anchor Church and other villages, we also went to Twyford to watch the ferry which was still operating across the River Trent which can be a fiercesome river in flood (it demolished the Cavendish Bridge on the A6 at Shardlow when the snows of the very bad winter of 1947 melted, this was the only main road south to London [no motorways then] out of Derbyshire, the army had to rapidly build a Bailey bridge which sufficed until the new bridge was built - another piece of useless information!) . It was a very tiny hamlet from memory. Incidently a lot of Derbyshire lead miners migrated to Wales in the 18th century especially from Youlgreave and Ashover (from memory didn't some of the miners work at Halkyn, also in the mines in the area around Wrexham as John Twigg Esq., Gentleman from Holme Hall, Bakewell [cousin to my John Twigg of Sycamore House, Bonsall], who was a lead merchant owned lots of lead mines there in the mid to the late 1700's - he owned an estate at Wrexham and was Lord Lieutenant of Denbeighshire, he subsequently went bankrupt and died, his Derbyshire mines were advertised for sale in the Derby Mercury in the 1770's) there were routes over to Wales from south Derbyshire, and I have recently read of mention of oxen drawing carts containing "pigs" of lead being transported from Derby down to the port of Southampton. I'll look more into this subject of transport, it's very interesting. There are lots of articles on the Turnpikes in the old Derbyshire Archaeological Society's Journals. Also when you do finally make it to South Derbyshire don't forget the gypsum deposits around Chellaston, when I studied geology we visited the brick works there, again they closed soon afterwards. If you want to see fine examples of Alabaster work on tombs do include a visit to Breedon-on-the-Hill church on your trip south. Again, apologies for going off topic.

Incidently in our discussion on slate and tiles, we've forgotten to mention the old clay pan tiles which were commonly used in Derbyshire and many othe places for roofing in historical times, deposits of clay being found on the edge of coal measures both to the east and west, where there was also ironstone mines. Pan tiles were easily broken and over the centuries would have disintergrated, hence hardly any trace of them left only in archaeological digs, which made it interesting to read about the two Roman slates.

Got to fly, daughter and three grandsons on their way to visit, if I'm caught wasting time on the p.c. I'm for the high jump and a lecture!
Digit
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16 years ago
Quote:

carnkie wrote:- The increasing demand from the twelfth century for strong, long-lasting and inflammable roofing materials resulted in slate and stone becoming sought-after commodities.



Its worth remembering that there were laws (early examples of planning regulations) introduced to limit the spread of fires from roof to roof. This prevented/discouraged materials like straw and reed in town and city centers. The Great Fire of London is far from the first and only example of disaster by fire, its simply the best known. There had been many earlier examples. Also high quality (stone, slate, lead) roofing was a status symbol for the church and ruling class.

Early examples of North Wales slate are known to include some use within Edward's ring of castles (particularly Conwy) and early cathedrals like St. Asaph.
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ICLOK
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16 years ago
Good points aplenty... I had forgotten that of course Castles and Abbeys etc had roofs so I guess we can summise that the stuff was surely being used in the Norman era on a reasonable scale albeit somewhat thicker and perhaps different in size. If we know it was around in the 12th C then I would guess it could have been in use earlier than that were available... gonna have to get my books on abbeys out the loft...
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Digit
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16 years ago
Fire resistance was quite important in castles, the opposition liked nothing better than to burn you out.
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stuey
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16 years ago
I haven't been up that way for quite a while now, but I used to regularly surf at Trebarwith. Very nice wave.

You can still find coal in the sand as it was dumped at high tide over the side of boats and hauled up "Port William Slip". I wonder whether this was mainly for the Prince of Wales pumping engine up the road.

Another interesting place which had extensive slate quarries is Backway's Cove around from Dennis' Point. A total mission to get to, or a adrenaline raising paddle from Trebarwith, if there is a bit of a swell running. Dennis Point has been quarried itself but the quarries at Backways Cove are pretty spectacular. Colors Cove (correct spelling) at the far end of Trebarwith has cliff workings and you can (with lots of balls on a very dry day) free climb up to a big chamber which is oddly lined with ferns "looking out". A camera moment when I didn't have one.

There is also an "adit" on the 1:25000 at Barratt's Zawn and a shaft up the valley. This is either rock related or Antimony related.....(is that what they mined at Port Issac?)

I gather the delabole quarries are very deep indeed and are dived by nutters. If you catch it from the right angle (driving on the Bodmin road "out that way", Delabole looks like a small settlement dwarfed by an enormous hole.
Gwyn
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16 years ago
There is evidence from the early Iron Age of slate being used in N.Wales for domestic implements.
The use of slate, by the Romans, in the mansio at Caer Llugwy/Bryn-y-Gefeiliau might pre-date that of Segontium.
The use of slate in the N.Wales castles is intriguing in that it appears to have been used for bedding and leveling stone courses as well as shimming and galleting during the building phase. This implies that it was either imported for the purpose or was already available in the area...on someone's roof!?
Prior to circa 1740 most slates would have been "moss" (10"X4"), "singles"(10"X5") or "doubles"(12"X6"). It was General Hugh Warburton (of Penrhyn) and his agent, John Paynter who introduced larger sizes circa. 1750. These were given female, aristocratic names and came in different grades/thicknesses.
It was the industrialisation of Penrhyn and its associated transport system by Richard Pennant et al. (circa 1780) that gave rise to the mass production of a standardised product that we recognise today.
derrickman
16 years ago
the use of slate as a levelling course, or simply for decoration, is quite common in Roman buildings.

it was also widely used as a damp course before the general adoption of first tarred ( bituminized ) fabric and subsequently plastic, as now
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
Gwyn
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16 years ago
But would this be N.Wales slate?
Digit
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16 years ago
Yes they tended to be made from slate that was too small for roofing slate. Or from damaged roofing slates. A good way to minimize waste. Also some freelance contractors recycled material from the tips (Moel Tryfan area for example) not always officially. This could well have happened in other areas too but I have not seen any documentary suggestions of this, but most of my reading has related to N Wales.
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Gwyn
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16 years ago
Sorry, I wasn't specific enough!
I know of slate being used a D.P.C's. Used it myself for this.
I was questioning the Roman use of slate for levelling courses and decoration (opus sectile?) and if there is any evidence that this occured outside the area of its production, in this case, N.Wales.
Like you, Digit, my main area of study is N.Wales. I'm always on the look-out for our slate turning up in odd places and how/why it got there.
derrickman
16 years ago
Roman buildings everywhere use slate as a decorative feature. The Roman walls in St Albans have it, and there's no slate round there for sure.
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
Digit
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16 years ago
Sorry Gwyn, I had spotted your location but was trying to answer for the wider audience. Forums like this tend to be read by very many more people than ever contribute. Surveys indicate ratios of varying from 50:1 to 1000:1 but I suspect we are at or below the bottom end of that range. Might be interesting if the admins had some site statistics.
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carnkie
16 years ago
Don't know whether this will be of interest. Came across it while browsing. http://www.le.ac.uk/lahs/downloads/McWhirrvolumeLXIIsm.pdf 
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.

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