ICLOK
  • ICLOK
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16 years ago
Heres an idea.....
That in order to prevent people finding mines and exploring them etc, we could let the odd idiots damaging them take us down a road where we close off all sites such as this to the general public, downsize it and make it a club accessible to only those who we know and trust and rename it, perhaps Aditnowmasons? requiring perhaps 3 or 4 personal recommendation in order to get membership, then a trial period of 6 months. We could have creepy cliques and committees run by self appointed experts were nobody has time for you let alone your opinions etc as you've not been a member for 25 years yet, or because you are not considered an expert (having not written 5 books about Old Fuddy Farts mine) or don't have a degree in geology, or you're from over the Tamar etc etc.... 😮
That way we can censor and conserve everything in the mines... and it will stop all vandalism and keep everything nice and secret and controlled and hopefully put off any errr outsiders becoming involved or joining... :lol: In fact we could gate and fence everything and have only formal access controlled by official qualified bodies and clubs and self appointed friggin experts ... then we can swap pics amongst club members in the corner of the pub and everyone else can read about it in the clubs book by Doctor Knowall Phd's book on Old Fuddy Farts mine available for £20 in all obscure book shops... just how it used to be... job done.. 😮
😉 except it still won't stop some idiot with a gas axe breaking into your mine and trashing it after some local told him a bunch of guys have been working on such an adit!

Gimme Aditnow any day, gimme the Web any day, whilst the Net has let in some a******s, its let in new explorers and a lot of good research and links and pictures... thanks to this site alone I am working on about 6 colliery/tramway areas locally I didn't know about... all as a result of putting stuff up and being PM'd about stuff I didn't know... eventually I will put up what is in the best interest for those sites... so somewhere between nothing and the whole lot depending on the sites integrity/remains.... and not a secret club in sight.



Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Vanoord
16 years ago
Your heart's in the right place, Mr.ICKOK ;)

There is certainly a place for sharing information and for researching and discussing the history of the remains that we can find.

There is certainly a place for digging out (as it were) those gems of history that deserve to be brought to a wider audience - from last year I am minded particularly of the photographs of the Hunter Tunneller at Maenofferen and their presence on the calendar is a wonderful thing.

And there is certainly a place for getting out there and discovering a world that many of us can never have experienced - and piecing together the fragments of the lives that shaped the world of today.

The difficulty is doing so without damaging the very thing that we treasure - and it's not because we ourselves damage it: it's because sometimes the spotlight of the present can harm the past.
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
christwigg
16 years ago
I had a fairly "interesting" experience about two years ago when my naivety about the power of the internet was higher.

Long before I discovered ME or Aditnow I had done a bit of research, got some books out of the library, looked at old maps and had my first underground trip to Ayton Monument.

I posted some photos and a location on my own personal local interest website.

Within a few days I got this wondrous picture emailed to me by someone else who went off the back of the information I posted.

[photo]Personal-Album-859-Image-38214[/photo]

If you can't make that out, he's being an aeroplane with no helmet and his face covered "urbex" style (not sure that will help him with the low oxygen in there)

He clearly though I would think he was exceptionally cool and want to hang around with him, strangely I immediately removed the location from my website. :curse:

I can only assume he probably left Stella cans everywhere too :lol:
Rossony
16 years ago
I am not quite sure what to were getting at in your comments, ICLOC. You suggest that all sites should be accessible to all, and I agree. You also continue on about websites such as this, access to mines, etc., etc.... What is your connection on the subjects? Are you taking "Destruction of the underground" as preventing access, or as vandalizing it?.

FYI my first employment as an explorationist was to manage a field crew in 1964 on a project to explore for copper on the basis of ancient reports of copper being shipped from a "lost mine" that the locals thought was just a legend. After a month I found the location by noting some timber in a shoreline scree slope. With some blasting I opened the adit. It was a small mine with some old tools left. No destruction was done, and the next season storms probably burried it again.

The next year I worked as a mine geologist at an operating mine with numerous levels down to the 1400 level from adit top. Here I learnt from the miners about mining methods, cautions, and explenations about why things are done in certain ways. This mine is now closed. The only destruction from its closure was caused by government agencies and environmental groups who completely obliterated its existance or any access. Is this what you meant by access?

Since then, working as an explorationist I have visited numerous old mines in various parts of the world. These include old Inca mines, Spaniard mines, more recent "Picanero" diggings. From my previous underground experience some have downright dangerous, but I did not know it when I first entered them. I would strongly advise any novice against attempting it.

However, all these mines investigated have been accessible to me, and I have not been hindered by some regulatory agency banning access. Is this what you meant by "destructopn of the underground", ICLOC?


If it cannot be grown, it has to be mined.
sougher
16 years ago
Well expressed Ickok, I couldn't have written better. Throughout the years I have experienced the stuffy club/society situation you describe and it's very off putting especially to newcomers trying to start caving/mine exploring, the stuffy nosed so and sos whom you describe often forget that they were once young and had to start! Fortunately I can reflect back to the comradery and freedom of my early caving days in the 1950's/60's when we swopped plans, write-ups of caves/mines (because there was such a lack of accessible records in those days), planned meets and digs together, met up in the pub together etc. etc., then most mines and caves were accessible as long as we previously sought permission. Transport was the difficulty and meant that we could only access local areas where bus and train services allowed us weekend exploration. We walked everywhere carrying our gear, wore old cast off clothes for caving, paper machie helmets, carbide lamps, used flash powder to take photos, it's horrifying looking back, we must have despoiled quite a few mines we explored in the process! So we were far from perfect but we did not deliberately destroy artifacts, and if we found some poor soul on their first trip on their own exploring a mine, we offered them a trip with us, mostly our offer was accepted, sometimes they stayed with us, sometimes they joined other clubs, but they learnt through us the basic rules of cave and mine exploration and what not to do or destroy.

For people not to vandalise mines they have to be taught, one cannot learn without experience, but unfortunately there are ignorant people out there unwilling to blend in and learn and think it great fun to destroy rock formations, minerals and arifacts without giving any thought to the destruction they may have caused because they don't know any better, they are no better than children. I'm afraid that it's become a very selfish world to live in these days. Present day people haven't got much idea of history, it would appear from the experience of my grandsons that the history I was taught at school is no longer taught, and apart from studying geology it was history that attracted me to mine exploration against just plain caving. I wanted to know about the people who worked in and around the mines, and it was the artifacts that they left behind that got me even more interested. If they are removed or destroyed how will people learn about the miners of old.

Aditnow is one of the best websites I've come across on the internet for the information that is on it, through the people who participate by contributing photos, plans, documents and debating on the forum, I've made friends on it and learnt a lot. Without it, which unfortunately at the same time has the downside fault giving access to everyone, thus allowing unscruplous mine explorers to exploit the information contained upon it, we would be worse off. Regardless of such people we have to keep it open (in fact with all the information that it contains I begin to worry about what will happen to it in the long term - have you any long term plans for it's preservation Simon? Perhaps a new topic!) but at the same time if one has a mine one is very sensitive of (such as my favourite lead mine in Derbyshire), one hardly dares mentions it and certainly doesn't give it's location. One sadly has to be discreet.

This problem is one that is going to remain with us for evermore and I cannot see any easy answer to solving it.

ICLOK
  • ICLOK
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16 years ago
We seem to be kicking out at the internet and kinda saying the internet is a bad thing as it means we get vids like the one that started the thread and that we get any old idiots down our mines, and more people generally...

I agree to a degree that the Net may have caused more damage by showing folk whats there but I way prefer that to the closed shops of clubs, societies etc and the like that used to try and deny access to places, control info etc and control who got to go where etc.

I remember club and society meetings and having the same discussions as to why (this is well before the internet) the door got cut off their mine, or that cave pearls got nicked or engine house wall got trampled on etc, its because people don't like being told they can't or shouldn't go somewhere, and it was the same back then as today, people get intrigued and will wan't to see especially if there is a hint something is being kept secret... so whats the point of denying a dig at Wheal Bumfluff or Old Codger mine... you might as well come clean and say we are doing this, please keep out or get in touch if you want to visit...
My experience was that whatever anyone did to prevent unauthorised access or info getting out leading to unwelcome guests in mines or on IA sites was usually in vain because if it was anything of major significance, it got around by word of mouth anyway... it just gets out quicker now on the net..
Nowdays on the major sites there is no excuse for hiding data on a site that is well known.. quite the opposite... we should be using sites to educate the guy who fell thru the bridge that timbers of dubious age and strength should be avoided in such and such a mine.
No point saying its common sense... People are often just plain stupid or do not think sometimes, so the net is the perfect tool for at least trying to educate the idiots in our midsts that certain features in our mines should not be touched, walked on, hung from etc etc by adding to descriptions etc so they at least know these features exist.
But internet or not you are not gonna stop some nutter (whether he heard it on the net or got it by word of mouth) from trashing your mine, stealing relics regardless of how much you tell him he shouldn't...and its always been the same...

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Jimbo
  • Jimbo
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16 years ago
"christwigg" wrote:

Long before I discovered ME or Aditnow I had done a bit of research, got some books out of the library, looked at old maps and had my first underground trip to Ayton Monument.



I thought you found out about it in 2007 from the photos I uploaded to ME back in 2006 (along with Hunters Scar) as there was little hint of underground access to either of these places prior to that 😉
"PDHMS, WMRG, DCC, Welsh Mines Society, Northern Mines Research Group, Nenthead Mines Society and General Forum Gobshite!"
christwigg
16 years ago
I can't remember what I was doing this morning, let alone 2006. :lol:

Definitely didn't know about ME at time, had stumbled across photos on Tommys website I believe.

I was without a proper light and helmet and bottled it within 20m of the entrance. 😢

AR
  • AR
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16 years ago
"ICLOK" wrote:

We seem to be kicking out at the internet and kinda saying the internet is a bad thing as it means we get vids like the one that started the thread and that we get any old idiots down our mines, and more people generally...

I agree to a degree that the Net may have caused more damage by showing folk whats there but I way prefer that to the closed shops of clubs, societies etc and the like that used to try and deny access to places, control info etc and control who got to go where etc.



I don't think the internet is a bad thing per se but it does put information in the hands of people who will abuse it, hence why we should stop and think what we put up online. Yes, we should be sharing information experience and knowledge as much as possible but always with the consideration of what might be done with it. Here's a real example - I know a "back door" into a mine which has its main entrance securely gated, should I put up online where to find this alternative entrance so anyone could get into it and shrug my shoulders as "it'll get round by word of mouth anyway"? No, word of mouth has a limited circulation whereas something posted online is immediately accessible to billions of people (OK, mostly completely uninterested in old mines, but accessible to the all the same!). Furthermore, the owners of old mines look at the internet too - I'm told the manager of Long Rake keeps tabs on access to the workings courtesy of google.....

"ICLOK" wrote:

My experience was that whatever anyone did to prevent unauthorised access or info getting out leading to unwelcome guests in mines or on IA sites was usually in vain because if it was anything of major significance, it got around by word of mouth anyway... it just gets out quicker now on the net..



Word of mouth is much more easily controlled. I get told stuff in confidence, which I don't pass on at all or check with the person that told me first, partly for the self-interested reason that if I get the reputation as loose-gobbed I won't get told interesting stuff any more, and partly because there's usually a damn good reason to be discreet.

"ICLOK" wrote:

Nowdays on the major sites there is no excuse for hiding data on a site that is well known.. quite the opposite... we should be using sites to educate the guy who fell thru the bridge that timbers of dubious age and strength should be avoided in such and such a mine.
No point saying its common sense... People are often just plain stupid or do not think sometimes, so the net is the perfect tool for at least trying to educate the idiots in our midsts that certain features in our mines should not be touched, walked on, hung from etc etc by adding to descriptions etc so they at least know these features exist.
But internet or not you are not gonna stop some nutter (whether he heard it on the net or got it by word of mouth) from trashing your mine, stealing relics regardless of how much you tell him he shouldn't...and its always been the same...



I agree that sites like AN & ME should be putting out as much info as possible on the well-known and accessible sites (and the less well-known, and giving advice on what to avoid doing in these sites. It's impossible to be completely foolproof (never underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools....) but with a bit of forethought I feel we can strike a workable balance between providing a wealth of information to the interested newcomer without putting absolutely everything in the public domain. For example, I added a sticky to the Cromford sough entry to warn of bad air further up - knowing that there are two easily-accessible entrances so I'd rather have people knowing that going much beyond the Bedehouse branch without means of checking air quality is a bad idea, so hopefully DCRO won't have to go up to the far end with BA kit and body bags. Incidentally I was in there last night, and towards the end the oxygen level dropped from 19% to 17% in quite a short distance - needless to say, that's where we turned back.....

Another example - I had a long discussion with a friend about the video footage on Youtube of the Fieldgrove and whether this should have been posted there. He argued against it on the grounds it would encourage idiots to go and have a try themselves (there were some "wow, that looks really cool" comments posted) whereas my feeling is that the casual idiot will not have the kit and experience necessary to do anything like an 80m drop down an engine shaft except as a Darwin award entry.... Even if someone did fall to their death as a result of trying to get down a shaft without the requisite kit and experience how would "the authorities" stop off all 10,000+ shafts still open in the Peak, let alone in the UK as a whole? The other argument here was around accessing unstable workings and possibly damaging/removing the artefacts, but my line is that most people capable of getting in there are already going to be well versed in assesing the risk and know to leave the artefacts where they are.
So, in both these cases it's a judgment call about what to make public. Cromford Sough can easily be got into so I've chosen to make it public what the hazards are. On the other hand the Fieldgrove workings are both hazardous and sensitive, but the level of effort and expertise needed to get in are its security hence why I'm relaxed about that being in the public domain. Turning back to the mine I mentioned at the start, even though there's a fair bit about it in the public domain, I strongly feel shouldn't have the details of how to get in freely available, partly because of the risk of damamge and partly because the owner is very likely to take steps to block this entrance then there'll be no access at all.
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
derrickman
16 years ago
if God doesn't strike the internet with fire and brimstone, he owes Sodom and Gomorrah a big apology... I have a simple test for anything I post, 'do I want to actively advertise this to all and sundry?' If not, then I don't post it.


''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
ICLOK
  • ICLOK
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16 years ago
If god doesn't strike the internet with fire and brimstone then I guess he's on line!
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Roy Morton
16 years ago
"derrickman" wrote:

if God doesn't strike the internet with fire and brimstone, he owes Sodom and Gomorrah a big apology... I have a simple test for anything I post, 'do I want to actively advertise this to all and sundry?' If not, then I don't post it.



I'll second that! :thumbup:
"You Chinese think of everything!"
"But I''m not Chinese!"
"Then you must have forgotten something!"
derrickman
16 years ago
ok, now I'm worried. There are a whole stack of viruses with names like that on the Norton database....



''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
Manicminer
16 years ago
There's a lot of people about these days that just don't care. They live for today, with no regard for tomorrow. They live by the motto "One life, Live it." If they destroy something this week, they will find somewhere else to go next weekend.
Gold is where you find it
RJV
  • RJV
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16 years ago
Its not just old stuff that suffers mind. Not a week ago we'd left two sets of plans in a mine which Chris Twigg had photographed at the local archives and Blackshiver had had laminated. They were left for both our own use and to help anyone else that might come across them. A very obscure mine too, not a Smallcleugh or Cwmorthin.

Six days later and not one but both flaming sets have been nicked.

It beggars belief. :curse:
blackshiver
16 years ago
Whoever removed my mine plans (and you know who you are) should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. These took me ages to prepare and were meant TO BE PUT BACK AFTER YOU HAD USED THEM. If I had wanted them stealing I would have left them outside the entrance for the local yob's.
Put them back where they came from please.
christwigg
16 years ago
I'm hoping whoever took them just wanted to make copies and fully intends to return them.

If anyone comes across the place (and you'll certainly know if you have) I can provide electronic copies of my photos from the archives.

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