It was the fact that they obviously had some knowledge, seemed to find it amusing, and then publicised it that, to me, made it 10 times worse!

Agreed, accidentally putting your foot through something is not in the same league. You accidentally put your foot through something you make a note not to do it again. You fall bodily through old timbers, laugh and then publish the video...

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RJV wrote - "There seems to be an implication within this thread that young people and the internet are the cause of all evils however its readily apparent that the precious few remaining aritfacts that need protecting should be considered precious few precisely because of the actions of the 'wise old heads' who came before." -

Not young people, but people new to mine exploring. I've seen 'newbies' of all ages.
The fact there are collectors willing to pay figures like £400 for a boundary stone, makes vandalism lucrative and there are those who go u/g to persue just that.
There is also a vast difference between Knowledge and Wisdom; As my granny once said - "Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit...Wisdom is knowing not to put one in a fruit salad!"
I don't wish to point the finger at young people or internet users alike, and proportionally, the number of idiots is rising as more people see what there is on offer.
Why spend years attaining knowledge when ignorance can be achieved in an instant.

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This is a dilemma: In order to protect a site, do you publicise how important it is so as to attract the interest of those who might be able to help in their protection, or do you stay quiet and just hope the sites remain ignored by those who might otherwise fill them in or block them off, or redevelop them. You cannot be particularly selective with writing books, running open days, or creating websites, in the matter of who will learn of your interest, but do things in the right way and you can at least maximise the number of 'good' people who might support the cause, while still unfortunately drawing the attention of the 'bad'.

geo-cache, if I understand it correctly, is a sort of treasure-hunt connected with google earth - people post locations and you go and find them and do whatever you do.

Geo-caching is using a GPS to locate the caches... not sure how well GPS works underground though!

I think that the internet is wholly responsible for the rise in people being interested in this sort of thing. When I started going underground only 5 or 6 years ago it was still actually difficult to find people who were already doing this. Nowadays, it's a piece of cake to find someone online who'll take you underground... I've got to admit, I've taken "newbies" underground myself but I've always exercised extreme care, both with regard to where I take them and also to the type of person I allow to come with me (so far as is possible). I have now started directing anyone who's interested in going underground to ME, AN or DP because I think these websites provide a good "briefing" to the hobby, so that before new people go underground, they know the protocols/guidelines they should follow for their own safety and for the preservation of the mines and artifacts.
There is a problem with morons seeing some of these places online and thinking that just because other people have gone there before, it's acceptable for them to go too despite having had no experience of that type of environment. If the site they see the mine on is AN for instance, they'll probably realise that mine-exploring is something to be undertaken with care and guidance, whereas if their introduction to it is via a website showing a bunch of chavs standing around underground without helmets, trying to look hard for the camera whilst huddling around their single, shared cheapo plastic torch, they'll perceive these places as being no different to an old warehouse or hospital. The first time some little idiot gets killed as a result of visiting a mine they've seen online, it'll be the likes of us that end up suffering for it.

Having always had an interest in mining history all my life I thought I would take it a stage further and learn how to explore old mine workings. Hence I joined this site and hope some of the more eperienced would help me.

I now find that ppl are vandalising mining heritage sites not what its all about me thinks.

If i where to visit a museum I could not take one of the artifacts as a souvenir with out being prosicuted

As far as I am concerned the only souvenirs that should be taken is the photographs brought back to the surface and as little as possible disruption caused to the workings.

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I now find that ppl are vandalising mining heritage sites not what its all about me thinks.

Agreed, but don't worry, nobody on here is vandalising any sites. In fact there are stacks of people on here who give their time not only to push exploration (so dig and timber) but also to actively preserve sites. I only posted that video because it annoyed me that a group would think it was amusing enough to post it up for the world to see.

If anything I hope this site can actively help prevent damage. Our 'organised' trips are quite low key. There's a topic pinned to the home page about necessary kit and if any member wants to report damage or vandalism to give others a heads up in their area then they are enouraged to use the forum to do so :flowers:

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Just to add to Simon's comments, we also point people in the direction of informative things like the NAMHO guidelines on artefacts and their removal from mines.

In an ideal world, we would be able to put everything we know up online but until there are stringent tests for basic honesty and common sense applied before someone is allowed to use a computer, we do have to think carefully about what we reveal online.....

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we also point people in the direction of informative things like the NAMHO guidelines on artefacts and their removal from mines.

Agreed. And they're in fact available from the documents page (although there are that many documents now perhaps it needs a rethink on ordering), AditNow being a NAMHO affiate member. http://www.aditnow.co.uk/library/mining-library.aspx 

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This topic seems to reappear time and time again under different headings. I think the old adage one sees writ up frequently on environmental sites (no, lets not start that chestnut up as well) which is nevertheless true should apply:
"Take nothing but pictures.
Kill nothing but time.
Leave nothing but footprints.
Make nothing but memories."

After all, as long as sufficient detailed photographs and/or measurements are taken, things and places should be left just as they are for future people to enjoy. Sadly there will always be some people who will not leave well alone, and as some of the posters above have said, there are those to whom acquisition, personal posession and/or money is everything.

As I get older I find the world is not getting any better (sighs deeply puts on sack cloth and ashes, mutters "Woe and thrice woe" and slides under desk to be buried beneath an avalanche of Microsoft manuals) but that seems to be in the nature of things. I do not know anything you can do to stop idiots and vandals being anything other than idiots and vandals - education is only effective as long as the person concerned will think dispassionately and logically, rather than selfishly... and I've been in education for well over 30 (edited - can't count! anyway, it feels like over 40 years)years (sad, isn't it)enough ranting, back to the diagrams.

Cheers everyone

Grahami

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so, it seems that Cat_bones ( above ) isn't a fan of urbex.

I've done a fair amount of entry into derelict and working urban underground sites, mostly professionally, and they can be pretty dangerous. Having seen a pane of reinforced glass about 2 metres square fall around 20m from an arched shed roof, I don't want to see another one. They also have their fair share of rotten floors and unsafe access ladders.

that said, I do find there is a considerable difference between websites, and i've seen enough of sites like Dereliect Places, Dark Places and Sub Brit to understand the context of the comment

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This is a dilemma: In order to protect a site, do you publicise how important it is so as to attract the interest of those who might be able to help in their protection, or do you stay quiet and just hope the sites remain ignored by those who might otherwise fill them in or block them off, or redevelop them. You cannot be particularly selective with writing books, running open days, or creating websites, in the matter of who will learn of your interest, but do things in the right way and you can at least maximise the number of 'good' people who might support the cause, while still unfortunately drawing the attention of the 'bad'.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there and there is no easy solution, however I am of the opinion of publisize and educate rather than hide; here's why:

Whether people like it or not, there is a lot of info easily available about mines; if someone's interested, they will find it, as I did a couple of years ago.
If no-one is prepared to talk about it, the now slightly informed person will have to learn for themselves, they will go to a place they've seen online and possibly put a foot through a timber, or knock something down. They will learn from this and wont do it again, but the dammage is still done.
However, if someone else is prepared to take a newbie on a trip, they will have the rotten timber or unstable wall pointed out; nothing will get damaged and the newbie will still learn just as well.

When I started mine exploring, I had to learn for myself as I found that other mine explorers were not keen to pass on info to a stranger. Fortunately I have a bit of common sense and took the approach of "don't touch anything except the floor", so I don't think I caused any dammage. However, not everyone seems to think that way...

I would much rather give up a bit of time to take someone on a trip or two and show them how it should be done, than say nothing and leave them to innocently dammage countless mines and possibly put themselves and others in danger.

This is how things seem to work in the caving comunity, but unfortunately many mine explorers seem to be very secretive, making it very dificult for newbies to learn the strings so to speak.

It looks like the dammage caused in this case was due to ignorance, rather than deliberate destruction. Surely if people like this were better informed, the timber would still be intact.


:blink:

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so, it seems that Cat_bones ( above ) isn't a fan of urbex.

Lol, on the contrary mate... I dabble in a bit of urbex myself! I just think that urbex and underground exploration, though sharing common ground, are not the same thing in terms of skill-sets and neccessary equipment. I think as mine-explorers we have a responsibility to introduce new people to the hobby in a responsible manner and to discourage inexperienced people (and outright idiots) from attempting to emulate what we do.

I think as mine-explorers we have a responsibility to introduce new people to the hobby in a responsible manner and to discourage inexperienced people (and outright idiots) from attempting to emulate what we do.

Entirely agree :thumbup:

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so, it seems that Cat_bones ( above ) isn't a fan of urbex.

I've done a fair amount of entry into derelict and working urban underground sites, mostly professionally, and they can be pretty dangerous. Having seen a pane of reinforced glass about 2 metres square fall around 20m from an arched shed roof, I don't want to see another one. They also have their fair share of rotten floors and unsafe access ladders.

that said, I do find there is a considerable difference between websites, and i've seen enough of sites like Dereliect Places, Dark Places and Sub Brit to understand the context of the comment

...incidentally, I'd probably exclude DarkPlaces from the list of Urbex sites - they've not been doing that for ages and these days tend to be very sensible and protective about the Wiltshire stone mines, in many cases ensuring that access is still available and making repairs after people have vandalised entrances ;)

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There is certainly a big problem with the cross-over from Urbex to mine exploration and that's only going to cause more problems for us s in years to come.

There has to be a balance struck where people appreciate that visiting somewhere is not justification to post arty photographs and "brave and manly" video clips all over the internet in order to prove themselves in some way: that's how we're going to lose access to a lot of places.

I've ranted enough elsewhere on the subject of videos appearing on YouTube which show people getting round Forestry Commission gates, but it's a case in point.

And certainly, there's concern on this site about the effect of heavy traffic through Croesor: a trip which has becomes to some a 'sporting conquest' with the aim of having a laugh and boasting about the exploits of avoiding the "cave troll".

Quite what the answer is, I don't know: the internet has made a massive resource available to people and in general we try to use that as a means of sharing historic information and records; and to record what remains today for future generations.

Yet, there is an increasing influx of people who, attracted by tales of 'bravery' on the internet, care little for where they tread and serve only to threaten access for all.

Grahami's words are very apt: "Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints."

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Grahami's words are very apt: "Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints."

Carefull about leaving footprints, I know a few places with well preserved miners clog prints, best not to add to them 😉

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Grahami's words are very apt: "Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints."

Carefull about leaving footprints, I know a few places with well preserved miners clog prints, best not to add to them 😉

:lol:

"Take only photographs. Try not to leave footprints." 😉

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This thread has reminded me of my last trip to Burtree Pasture mine; in one area a passage has been sealed off where it crosses another passage. It was closed off during the working life of the mine, with heavy timber boards.

It takes litteraly 30 seconds to walk around to the other side of the timberwork, though open dry passage, yet someone has taken it upon themselves to smash out the timberwork since my previous visit :curse:

Elsewhere in the mine some really long stals had also been broken off, by someones careless enthusiasm to explore the place.

The mine is accessed via a 50m shaft, so you would think anyone going in there should know better :curse:

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This is a dilemma: In order to protect a site, do you publicise how important it is so as to attract the interest of those who might be able to help in their protection, or do you stay quiet and just hope the sites remain ignored by those who might otherwise fill them in or block them off, or redevelop them. You cannot be particularly selective with writing books, running open days, or creating websites, in the matter of who will learn of your interest, but do things in the right way and you can at least maximise the number of 'good' people who might support the cause, while still unfortunately drawing the attention of the 'bad'.

This is the axis of the problem down here, if you ask me.

It's a shame as the wonders of the underground are most certainly spectacular, interesting and awe inspiring. It also ties in with the celebration of the above ground stuff.

I think there is a change in the pipes and it was showing it's head at the time I got properly involved in "going down holes". People's holes that they were keeping quiet were getting renewed interest and alarm bells were ringing.

You may note that very little underground information appears on the database from Cornwall/S Devon anymore. In my opinion, this is due to aggregations of people getting together and fitting in with the status quo, which is to keep things quiet. At some point, someone will blow the doors off, either by saying "Right, I'm putting my photos online" or one of "us" publishing a spangly book.

It will change in due course and sadly, the "us and them" attitude is perhaps not helping things. I've noted the empire building and hostility between various groups and individuals, I've also heard people saying "I don't want to get involved in any of that s*&% and I will do what I like with the information I find".

Mine Explorer and this site are quite high profile locally and have considerable more "heat" than the other places you can store information. If you want to see people breaking into places, pushing huge things into shafts, throwing petrol bombs down shafts and generally being chumps, have a look on photobucket or youtube.

I'd say the flow of information has started and it will be virtually impossible to stop. So, we'll have more gating, empire building, filled access and angry landowners, sawn bars, people out for blood, more suspicion, secrecy and outrage.

Perhaps the endgame (due to the rescue fiasco down here) will be a renewed capping program with much more serious caps with real bats-only access. Probably after someone has snuffed it.

I share my information and pictures with like minded individuals offline and that's all that matters. It's a shame people that are interested can't see them, but it's better than an access stripping frenzy.

this isn't unique to ME by any means. Most specialised interest groups conduct themselves in a similar fashion.

Doesn't surprise me in the least that little appears from the SW, I wouldn't really expect much else. I shan't say a great deal because I'm not a huge fan of that part of the world, my first experience was of Wheal Jane in its working days with the friction and resentment between the local labour who often appeared to think more in terms of favouritism and patronage within self-defined in-groups, and clinging to the past, and the incomers who were more interested in running a modern mine and moving with the times.

Geevor was much the same in the Thyssen days.

CSM had a fair dose of it; Peter Hackett was much opposed and obstructed by some, but without his changes the School would be another bronze plaque on the 'heritage trail' by now.

BBC showed a similar picture in their 'Tin Men' broadcast; it's interesting to see the sea-change which seems to have taken place at South Crofty.

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If you are a newbee to the to the world of underground, step cautiously at first in well known sites that are considered "safe". You can progress to more venturesome exploration as you start to understand mining methods and the reasons why miners did things the way they did.

Regarding your comments about removing "souveniers" from underground or mine sites, I have found that it is mainly done by ignorant tourists that want to show off prizes from their excursion. If I knew one was comming, I would be tempted to remove a critical timber so that he gets a shower of loose on top of his scull.

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