In setting up the YouTube account I came across this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Qmyd0Vy3I 

Now this isn't a pop at the chap behind the camera, it wasn't him that fell through, and having read his bio I hope he's still doing well and exploring. Nor is it a a dig at any specific group.

The bridge over 10E has deteriorated massively in the few years since I first did the Croesor Rhosydd through trip. And this explains why. The chap stands on the timbers and falls straight through. OK, this wasn't deliberate damage, but it's bleeding obvious that if you stand on old and rotten timbers you are a) going to fall through and b) going to cause damage to the remaining fabric of the mine.

And then you video it and stick it on the 'net.

*sigh*

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This is precisely why some of us are so secretive and very reticent to give out info on places to visit. Sadly.... C/R (and other places) are witnessing large increases in traffic and its often types that have no respect for or knowledge of the fragility of abandoned mines.

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Here is my catalogue of unfortunate losses in Surrey.

Removal of 200 year old rails as souvenirs.

Trampling of footprints and haulage marks, possibly 500 years old.

Removal of rare dateable horse and ox shoes as souvenirs.

Destruction of drystone retaining walls for tentative and quickly-abandoned digs.

Route-finding spray painted arrows on walls.

Removal of 100 year old graffiti by ignorant do-gooders.

The consequence of this?

All important sites now LOCKED and CONTROLLED, with noticeable benefit to all sites involved.

This kind of thing partly stems from people having an inability to use common sense.
Its not uncommon to see people stand on fragile timber in complete ignorance of what they are doing, its no surprise that occasionally those bits of timber give way under the strain.

The Colonel as abslutely right, I'm afraid these days I only share information with those well known to me or highly recommended as pukka.

So bleeding obvious, Simon, that on the balance of probability test, it was deliberate. I would further suggest that the presence of a video camera might be seen to encourage such behaviour. A poor show, a very poor show indeed.
And it's not just underground......don't get me started! :guns:

No not just underground and not just the idiots. As I understand it the impressive engine house at Goold's shaft of Wheal Grenville was wantonly demolished by the landlord before it could be preserved.

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Well that was the same man than pulled down Carn Camborne Stack

I have left a suitable comment, feel free to comment further (and I have left the dooropen for a follow up comment to mine)

What Stuey says is largely true. I would like to add that getting into this game now is a lot easier than it was a few years ago. The usual route was either via a caving club or knowing someone in the game already.
Today the internet has to a great degree, shown people that there is another world besides the one they have on the surface.
So now all they have to do is get on line and look for good looking places to go. Pick up some lighting and some other rudimentary kit, and off to Wales or wherever, with no knowledge of the unspoken rules and protocols that the Bona Fide ME endeavours to abide by.
I've taken countless people on their first trip underground and regardless of intelect, the number of people wanting to touch delicate formations is amazing, and it's not untill you point out the consequences of doing so that they pause and consider their actions.
Now if there are a bunch of newbies with no guidance stanking around in a mine there will be damage done and oftimes quite innocently. Unfortunately that innocence can last an awfull long time untill they aquire the knowledge from someone in the know. The last time I was in Bedford United in Devon, I lost count of the number of beer cans and crisp bags lying around. I've found mineral collectors in Cligga smoking weed and drinking beer.
Considering all of the above, it's little wonder that secrecy trust have become part of an ME's equipment.
A sad state of affairs I agree, but if we are to maintain anything like an underground heritage then so be it.
It would hardly be worth having a museum if people kept nicking the exhibits. Same goes for underground.
Keep the surface on the surface! :thumbup:

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nothing new except for the increased ease of access to information for people who treat it as ' a bit of a lark'. Same people have much more access to transport, too. When I firstt went caving in about 1970, Cambridge to Yorkshire Dales was a fairly serious mission, leave about 6:30 and arrive sometime around 1am... not now.

I was at Godstone main series not so long ago and the remains of a 70s teenage party are there to be seen 🙂 , remains of two 'tramp's encampments' dating from the 1940s were found at Combe Down, there's a long list.

Cligga has a long history as a quiet spot for a toke, speaking as someone who was a student at CSM in the 70s....

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Down in the Tamar Valley we have our fair share of idiots underground, however I have recently discovered a new and worrying species of idiot. Last Thursday on a trip into South Crebor/ New East Russell we found a lunch box towards the back end of the mine which announced itself to be a "geo - cache". My understanding of these things is limited but as I understand it they are similar in concept to the Dartmoor letterbox. Given that would be, and presumably inexperienced, explorers are being enticed over a flooded winze and under some questionable stopes I am somewhat concerned.

The first time we did crtt one of our group did something similar.
It was a total accident as they just misjudged where the "solid" bit was!

geo-cache, if I understand it correctly, is a sort of treasure-hunt connected with google earth - people post locations and you go and find them and do whatever you do.

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I was at Godstone main series not so long ago and the remains of a 70s teenage party are there to be seen 🙂

.... along with large white painted graffiti and spray-painted arrows, and a catalogue of rescues and near-misses from youngsters getting lost, which led to calls for the entrances to be blocked up. By reacting sensibly and responsibly we now have the site properly gated so access is still possible by legitimate means, to anyone who wants to visit, mine explorer or not.

Many mines are important historical sites with valuable industrial and social archaeology. Would we be so interested in seeing the evidence of 1970s teenage parties left for all to see in Westminster Abbey, or Stonehenge? It might be interesting, but is it appropriate?

appropriate? Possibly. I have variously seen a medieval tennis ball, found in the rafters of Westminster Great Hall from a time when it was used as a sorts arena by Henry VIII; damage in rural churches in Northants from being used as temporary stabling by Cromwell's troops, there are plenty more.

I don't see any difference in principle between a graffito by a Belgian mushroom grower, a 1970s Party seven can and a 19th century clay pipe. None of them are being made any more, although in the case of the Party Seven you might think that was just as well.

a while ago my wife and I went to Geevor. She thought the 'dry' was a smelly tip, with its bare concrete floors, wellie boots laying about and old work clothes still in the lockers; I thought it was very evocative of the place as I actually saw it working thirty-odd years ago. It's a matter of perception.

quite how you draw any generally accepted line between who should and shouldn't be allowed into any given place, I have no idea. I can't actually summon a lot of enthusioasm for propping up delaminated areas of unknown size in old ironstone mines, using an acrow prop, if it comes to that. A bit of confidentiality goes a long way.

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From a surface archeology point of view, if its been recorded elsewhere or of an idestructable nature then i publish it openly on the net.... just as with underground the more people have visited certain sites near me the worse they have got to the point I now will not take people to certain hidden corners of local IA in Ripley area... I used to take walks and word got around certain features were there and for a while they got popular.. with it came Crisp bags , drink cans, broken fences etc so now I play it by ear and show only those I know I can trust... plus someone nicked a boundry stone of a tramway I was tracing.. it ended up being sold privately for £400.

As for underground I agree with all your comments having seen much of undeground Derbys much vandalised (intentionally and un-intentionally) and trampled and bearing in mind it wasn't that hot by the time I started in 1980 exploring it is very sad today.

Having said all this I know that vast amounts of relics and damage were done by folk around here removing bits for 'Safe keeping' during their exploring.... and yet some of these people in the area seek to slate people doing the same today or for wandering over a particular site researching for themselves... it's a people thing and once more it falls to us all to encourage good behavior and common sense both above and below ground... prob is there will always be a******s!

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I remember being told a long while ago that unacceptable removal of artefacts was often the removal of something you couldn't lift, or didn't have room for, yourself...

I don't particularly agree with re-publishing things which are 'in the public domain'. I spent a number of years working on various tunnel and underground works projects in Central London, and I know that being published somewhere, in a tatty copy of something published by Rolt in the 1950s currently mouldering in a charity shop after being sold for 50p by the Library, or in the middle of a 35-page pdf of a scan of the Proceedings of the Lower Herefordshire Mining Engineers Society for 1976, and being flagged up on a open-access website, are very different things.

just because YOU have found it on google, doesn't mean everyone else has, or recognises it when they see it.

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Having said all this I know that vast amounts of relics and damage were done by folk around here removing bits for 'Safe keeping' during their exploring.... and yet some of these people in the area seek to slate people doing the same today or for wandering over a particular site researching for themselves... it's a people thing and once more it falls to us all to encourage good behavior and common sense both above and below ground... prob is there will always be a******s!

Well said.

There seems to be an implication within this thread that young people and the internet are the cause of all evils however its readily apparent that the precious few remaining aritfacts that need protecting should be considered precious few precisely because of the actions of the 'wise old heads' who came before.

This nice if slightly scrappy little collection was recently dug up by the group of young(ish), untaught and relatively inexperienced explorers to which I belong. They were cleaned in situ and left in a safe and discreet place, within eyeshot of where they were found.
🔗Personal-Album-988-Image-38186[linkphoto]Personal-Album-988-Image-38186[/linkphoto][/link]

I'm not so sure where one would find a similar collection found in the 70s, 80s or 90s.

🔗Personal-Album-988-Image-38186[linkphoto]Personal-Album-988-Image-38186[/linkphoto][/link]

I'm not so sure where one would find a similar collection found in the 70s, 80s or 90s.

Probably on someones mantle piece gathering dust or at the back of a cupboard forgotten about for years 😞

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It was the fact that they obviously had some knowledge, seemed to find it amusing, and then publicised it that, to me, made it 10 times worse!