I've been watching this thread with some interest.

I understand the concern regarding the naming of mines on this site that has resulted in duplicate entries which poses a headache for those who have to maintain the database and do a great job by the way :thumbsup:

However, much of the confusion, especially with regard to the Cornish mines, has been caused by incorrect naming that has been going on since the last century and even before that, with Wheal dropped as a prefix and Cornish language names Anglicised. The corruption of place-names is exemplified by the renaming of the Stannary of Foweymore as Bodmin Moor.

I am very much in favour of retaining the original Cornish and Welsh mine names. I agree that it is difficult to decide what the original name of many mines might be when OS and other documentary sources offer conflicting nomenclature. Here, perhaps mining historians familiar with mines in their area could be mustered to advise on the most suitable names and spellings?

I would not wish to see the prefix Wheal dropped from Cornish mines and would welcome a solution that keeps the Aditnow database tidy and queries on mine sites simple.

this is really, exactly what I was referring to, regarding people using names as a vehicle for their own agenda.

I would take the view that the 'correct' name for a mine, if such a thing can be said to exist, is the name by which its workforce knew it, which appears on generally-accepted maps of the area, and by which it was described in its various documentation; on the basis that a mining company is a legal entity, not a local topographical feature.

Wheal, or Huel, or any other local variation, appears to be a word meaning 'work' or 'sett' or something similar. Not all Cornish mines are or were so titled, by any means. There is no reason to believe, as far as I know, that South Crofty or Dolcoath were ever so titled. Tincroft appears to have been so named as long ago as the 1680s. Great Work and Devon Consols appear always to have been so named.

When I was in Cornwall in the 1970s, Wheal Jane was always so named; quite why this particular name should have been used, is presumably an example of the often arbitrary process by which names become current.

Wheal Pendarves was sometimes so named, I believe that's what it said on the board at the gate; Mount Wellington, never. Geevor was usually referred to as simply 'Geevor' but also as Wheal Geevor for certain purposes. The present website doesn't appear to use the term. Levant never did, and still doesn't. Botallack didn't, either.

I don't have any recollection of the Condurrow / King Edward mine sett around the Beacon / Troon area using the term.

the abortive incline at Hemerdon was certainly known at the time as 'Hemerdon Bal', another old Cornish word.


Egyptologists bicker among themselves in a constructed language which their objects of study would have found completely incomprehensible ( no king of Egypt was ever called 'Pharoah' ) , but Cornish mines have a fairly well documented history, almost entirely in English, and I would suggest that any PC-driven attempt to impose a 'Cornish' naming system, derived from one of several variants of a revived language which is itself the subject of arcane debate among its adherents, is a pointless anachronism and bad hiostorical practice, pure and simple

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Derrickman, you are way off the beam in response to what I considered to be a moderate statement to an issue that needs sorting.

I did not sday that I wanted 'Wheal' inserted as a prefix to all Cornish mines.

If I have an 'agenda', it is simply as a mining historian to see the correct and time honoured names for mines all over the UK used.

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it's all a matter of perspective, but I have to say that I have never met anyone who spoke Cornish ( in any of its variants ) to any useful extent, and I found the 'deposed aristocracy' attitudes depicted recently on the Beeb, depressingly familiar.

I'm minded here of an old friend of mine, from my student days. He's a Cornishman who abandoned the local industry to go to S Africa, and is currently in Canada. He speaks at least four languages, with varying degress of fluency ( mind you, his 'canuck' French is even more bizarre and Clouseau-esque than my Arabic / Senegalese influenced efforts... but he appears to make himself understood, which is the main thing )

he has spent his whole career in hard-rock mining, and his knowledge of state-of-the-art practice means he has never been out of work.

is someone going to tell me he isn't a 'true' Cornish miner because he has no interest at all in the supposed language of his forefathers, choosing to regard it as an irrelevance?

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I, and no one else as far as I am aware, is suggesting that anyone who does not speak Cornish or have any interest in the language is not a true Cornish miner. You have taken my comments completely out of context.

Roy was merely canvasing opinion about trying to tidy up the database, which would be most welcome and useful. I simply wanted to suggest that as far as possible original names should be used for all mines in Cornwall and beyond.

It was certainly not my intention to use this chat facility as a forum for political ends as you suggest. I am deeply shocked and saddened by your statements and remarks.

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As for tidying up the database, I find the CAPITALISATION of loads of Cornish mines quite an untidy feature.

I, and no one else as far as I am aware, is suggesting that anyone who does not speak Cornish or have any interest in the language is not a true Cornish miner. You have taken my comments completely out of context.

Roy was merely canvasing opinion about trying to tidy up the database, which would be most welcome and useful. I simply wanted to suggest that as far as possible original names should be used for all mines in Cornwall and beyond.

It was certainly not my intention to use this chat facility as a forum for political ends as you suggest. I am deeply shocked and saddened by your statements and remarks.

the point I was trying to make is that the Cornish mining industry is and was, an essentially English-speaking industry, because of its historic timescale. The superimposition at this stage of 'Cornish language' nomenclature is an anchronism, in the most literal sense of the term.

not least because 'Cornish' as it is currently understood, is an academic construct comprising elements from several quite different interpretations of limited evidence.

mines were and are, legal entities and financial structures with documentation recording their names as they were then understood to be written.

I would therefore seriously question the whole concept of 'using traditional names' in this context.

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Not knowing what the majority of mines in the South East were called (if, indeed, they ever had any official appellation) is pure bliss! I can make up the name of any site I choose to add to the database and nobody can argue about it! 🙂

I am not suggesting that the names of mines should be translated into Cornish!!! Merely that the prefix Wheal should not be dropped and the historic names of mines should not be altered.

In the interests of maintaining the friendly nature of this chatroom facility, please, drop the snide remarks about the Cornish language - I, and I am sure others, find it somewhat offensive.

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snide, moi? heaven forfend 😢 ... I just got that off wikipedia, along with several other sources. The part about never having met a Cornish speaker is a simple statement of fact.

I've worked with Welsh speakers, so I know a certain amount about that.

my father's family were and in some cases still are, yiddish speaking, for reasons you can probably work ou for yourself... so you'll have to excuse me thinking that speaking English is one of life's blessings.

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Thank you to everybody, Roy, Wyn, Sparty etc. who responded confirming Bryn yr Afr.

It was my mistake, and my mistake alone to add a duplicate entry. I searched for Brynyrafr and didn't find it.

I've since moved my photos across to the existing entry, which had photos already from Roy and Wyn, and a good description from Roy, and I've deleted my duplicate.

I've also added the non-hyphenated Brynyrafr to the 'alternative name' field. That may not be absolutely accuracte, but it might stop the same thing happening again?

Sorry for causing confusion.

Thanks again for the clarification and as this thread has run its course I've locked it :flowers:

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