Amazingly we had people with a mineral bias, historical bias and even an artifact bias.... WE EVEN GOT ON.... why? because we talked and understood each other rather than taking ridiculous stanses!
Guys I keep hearing well reasoned arguments from both sides.... neither side accepting the removal of artifacts or mineral to the total detriment of a site...
Whats gone wrong then???
Its called idiots who don't care... they don't care what they steal, damage wreck,etc as long as they get the best samples or artifacts... its often about ££££'s, they don't contribute here or any where else so why are we busy chewing chunks out of each other when in reality we all know the problem lies at the extremes of whatever part of this hobby we follow.... they must be p**sing themselves with laughter at the division!
...The better angels of my soul tell me that most on here are decent concientious people.... not wreckers...
sorry for the rant ...
:surrender: :thumbsup:
No ICLOK it was not a rant, but one of the better posts on this topic. Those who would rip out a hopper to get at a few crystals (to use Jagman's example) are just as bad as those who'd leave every crystal (even those NOT near historical artefacts) in the ground to be lost forever when the mine collapses, or poorly appreciated (because it is covered in dirt) by the few privileged enough to be able to get to it. Both groups annoy me 😠
As I keep saying we need COMPROMISE! Enough has been said in the other thread about this so I will not repeat it all here. A few points do merit comment though:
AdrianP refers to people making a business out of selling what they find. He can rest assured it is not a profitable one! Dealers (those who buy and sell) seem to be able (just) to scrape by, but your average collector is lucky to recoup costs, and as fuel prices soar that will continue to be the case. And for every collecting trip that pays its way (or even returns a little profit) there will be many others that fail. Overall they balance out, and probably lean to the debit side. I intend this only as a comment on the financial aspect. I am reticent to get into a debate on the ethics of collecting to sell. It is another can of worms that could keep a thread going for weeks, and I havn't the time!
It was commented on the other thread that this debate can get heated and ends up with the moderators moderating. Hopefully moderately. Both sides are passionate about their hobbies. To those on the anti-collecting side, I would say that the passion you feel about every last shot hole, or whatever, is the passion mineral buffs feel about minerals. Now how would you feel if various authorities, or individuals, came along and declared that you cannot indulge your interest anymore, or at least only in a manner so restricted it would render it as pointless as fishing without a hook on your line?
This is what is happening to the mineral buffs. It is coming from various quarters. The health & safety fascists have effectively closed off many of the quarries. And as for working mines - forget it. The archaeology brigade get restless about digging in tips. More and more sites are being designated SSSI's. Geoparks are spreading and bringing with them a much more "conservative" attitude to collecting, and especially selling, of minerals. The North Pennines Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty brigade have published an appalling "Geodiversity Audit and Action Plan" which repeatedly accuses collecting of being a "threat" to sites, without providing a jot of evidence, or acknowledging the very positive contribution collectors have made. And most notorious of all, the Lake District National Park Authority (LDNPA) have introduced a permit scheme that is so restrictive one might as well go out collecting with a teaspoon.
It is probably this last that has caused the greatest resentment amongst collectors. The fury and frustration it generated is hard to convey, but mention it to collectors and they will variously groan and sigh, or start foaming at the mouth and denouncing the intransigent bigots at the LDNPA. It has probably done more to polarise opinions amongst collectors into militantly pro versus "collaborators" who would "sell out" to the authorities, than any other issue of recent years. The mineral literature and blogs have been full of comment on the LDNPA as heated as any here. The LDNPA has been repeatedly challenged to substantiate its claims that collectors (the very people responsible for most of the discoveries in the Caldbecks over the years) are a threat to the mineral resource, and they have failed miserably to do so. In fact they generally simply ignore, or evade such challenges.
I do not want to go into all the arguments here, they have been well enough rehearsed already, but I ask the "anti" collecting side to consider how they would feel in the mineral collectors' shoes? For years you pursue your hobby. You act responsibly, asking permission, recording your discoveries etc. A few cowboys cause occasional trouble, but everyone accepts that they are not representative, and refrains from tarring all with the same brush. And this status quo prevails for decades. Then the problems I list above begin. Some, like health & safety, you can do little about. But others, like the LDNPA may be amenable - you think. So you try to reason with your opponents. They will not listen. Or they listen and then ignore everything said. You ask for proof. They have none, only opinions and unsubstantiated and generalised accusations. You refute their arguments. They don't care. Despite years of meetings and discussions you end up stuck with a restrictive scheme, that completely hobbles your hobby, and it is held up as a shining example of how your hobby should be done. An example for other authorities and landowners to follow.
An analogy would be explorers suddenly being told they can venture no further than 50 metres into a mine, and only certain kinds of mine, on pre-arranged days of the year, and without leaving footprints, on some spurious pretext that does not withstand scrutiny. You'd be :curse: wouldn't you?
Well that is how many collectors feel at the minute. There are some now who have given up trying to reason with the closed-minded and will simply put two fingers up at anyone who starts telling them what they can or cannot do. It is not because they don't give a damn about others' interests. They do. They are just fed up with what they see, correctly, as unjustified attacks on their hobby and will not take any more. So when they get called names by some in this forum (the word "scum" comes to mind), do not be surprised if they respond like a bull to a red flag and a slanging match ensues. Thankfully this time it seems to have remained more gentile, and I hope the moderators will not need to start moderating. 🙂