Can anyone shed any light on the spelling of this :

[img]http://www.aditnow.co.uk/showimage?f=/community/Personal-Album-64-Image-029/[/img]

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RAILWAY,LODGE,BOSTON all seem correct to me! :lol:

I seem to recall Merddinemrys talking about various spellings to do with the railway, im sure that when he returns from his hard days graft, he will explain all!

What's wrong with it ? Ffestiniog was spelt with one F for most of the 19th century, as far as English people were concerned, so worksplates would have that spelling.

Graham

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What's wrong with it ? Ffestiniog was spelt with one F for most of the 19th century, as far as English people were concerned, so worksplates would have that spelling.

Graham

Ah.... you see as a foreigner I didn't know that ! 😉

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In my railway book there is a copy of a ticket dated 1st, Dec 1898, and spelt with one F, so when and why was the second F added?

My book also contains a timetable from 1956 with one F, so the spelling has crept into the 20th century

I think the second F wasn't added until late 60s/early 70s. Incidentally, the official company name is still with one F, in effect the Ff version is virtually just a "trading name" to appease the nationalists. All official documents carry (or should carry) the single F version. To change the company name would (I understand) need another act of Parliament, plus it would no longer then be the world's oldest surviving operating railway company!

Welsh (and the four, main spoken dialects) is written almost phonetically and thus pronunciation is a fairly simple matter. I shall not go into the unphonetic aspects!
In the Welsh alphabet:-
F is pronounced like v, as in vine or f as in of.
Ff is pronounced like f in if.
Quite why the railway chose the incorrect spelling is a mystery. I would have expected, that at the time, there would have been sufficient numbers of educated people in the area who would have spotted and commented on this aberration. Perhaps it was too late by the time it was spotted!
It is interesting to note that Lindsey.1974. when refering to the railway uses F, and the place Ff, whereas Jones.1982. uses Ff in both cases.
When I see the single F, I automatically think Vestiniog, which may be a correct mutation in some circumstances, especially in conversation, but here is wrong.

Welsh (and the four, main spoken dialects) is written almost phonetically and thus pronunciation is a fairly simple matter. I shall not go into the unphonetic aspects!
In the Welsh alphabet:-
F is pronounced like v, as in vine or f as in of.
Ff is pronounced like f in if.
Quite why the railway chose the incorrect spelling is a mystery. I would have expected, that at the time, there would have been sufficient numbers of educated people in the area who would have spotted and commented on this aberration. Perhaps it was too late by the time it was spotted!
It is interesting to note that Lindsey.1974. when refering to the railway uses F, and the place Ff, whereas Jones.1982. uses Ff in both cases.
When I see the single F, I automatically think Vestiniog, which may be a correct mutation in some circumstances, especially in conversation, but here is wrong.

I hear "Ffestiniog" more often pronounced "Ffestiniog" than "vestiniog" even in Wales..

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What, incidentally, is the plate from?

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You are quite correct, LAP. However, in conversation there are circumstances were I would not blink if the mutation/pronunciation "Vestiniog" was used. If nothing else, it's easier to say! It may not be "absolutely" correct but Welsh is a dynamic, living language. By way of example,
Bethesda is frequently mutated, in conversation, to Pesda.

Quite why the railway chose the incorrect spelling is a mystery. I would have expected, that at the time, there would have been sufficient numbers of educated people in the area who would have spotted and commented on this aberration. Perhaps it was too late by the time it was spotted!

One often sees Anglicised spellings being used in the slate industry, presumably because the quarries were owned by English landowners. For example, the Dinorwic quarry had a loco named Velinheli* even though the port was/is called Felinheli.

Similarly, 'Foty' mine was often referred to as 'Votty' and even 'Caernarfon' was also 'Caernarvon' until relatively recently.

I'd hazard a guess that the quarry/mine owners believed that the English spelling was preferable not just because it would be easier for potential customers to understand, but also because the Welsh spelling would have been considered a sign of poor education.

A lot of the de-Anglicising of Welsh place names (such as the effective renaming of 'Port Dinorwic' to 'Y Felinheli') has only happened in relatively recent times, ie the last 30-40 years.

* It may have been two called Velinheli - one at the quarry / at the dock and one on the 'mainline' down to the dock?

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I've also seen Diffwys spelt Diphwys in I think Ian Tyler's book on honister slate
Similarly - Dinorwig - Dinorwic

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Quite why the railway chose the incorrect spelling is a mystery. I would have expected, that at the time, there would have been sufficient numbers of educated people in the area who would have spotted and commented on this aberration. Perhaps it was too late by the time it was spotted!

One often sees Anglicised spellings being used in the slate industry, presumably because the quarries were owned by English landowners. For example, the Dinorwic quarry had a loco named Velinheli* even though the port was/is called Felinheli.

Similarly, 'Foty' mine was often referred to as 'Votty' and even 'Caernarfon' was also 'Caernarvon' until relatively recently.

I'd hazard a guess that the quarry/mine owners believed that the English spelling was preferable not just because it would be easier for potential customers to understand, but also because the Welsh spelling would have been considered a sign of poor education.

A lot of the de-Anglicising of Welsh place names (such as the effective renaming of 'Port Dinorwic' to 'Y Felinheli') has only happened in relatively recent times, ie the last 30-40 years.

* It may have been two called Velinheli - one at the quarry / at the dock and one on the 'mainline' down to the dock?

Hmmm where to start in commenting on the above?!?

I would imagine the FR was named Festiniog Railway due, as has been stated, to most of the slate industry being owned/run by Englishmen.

Regarding Carnarvon, Caernarvon, Caernarfon, to this day it is still the "Royal Borough of Caernarvon" the Royal Charter was granted (I believe) in the early 1970s. Yes, I know all the town names are spelt Caernarfon, but as in the case of the FR, the correct name is Caernarvon.

Regarding, Port Dinorwic (g)/Y Felinheli. "That place" was named after a mill at the site that was worked by the ebb and flow of the tide. Y Felinheli means salt water mill. It was renamed Port Dinorwic when it became known more as the port for the Dinorwic Quarry rather than it's traditional name. Incidentely, I have a large enamel sign from the quarry which id bilingual and has Dinorwic on one half of the sign and Dinorwig on the other. It dates from the 1880s.

What, incidentally, is the plate from?

The plate is from the Double Fairie locomotive "Livingstone Thompson" which I believe is currently at NRM York.

Hi there. I'm employed by the FESTINIOG Railway Company incorporated by act of parliament on the 23rd May 1832. There are different stories as to why the spelling is with a single F but I guess it is because at the time many Welsh places were anglicised - Aberdovey, Towyn, Dolgelley and Carnarvon to name but a few. The person setting up the company is also likely to have been English and probably had never been to Ffestiniog either which won't have helped.

Ffestiniog has never been pronounced Vestiniog by anybody - I don't even think it is mutated but I may be wrong.

Since around the late 70's, the railway has traded under the name of the Ffestiniog Railway but still retains the single F on legal documents and if you look closely at the company's crest on the carriages the single F is still there.

There are however exceptions and I have some tickets for the Quarrymens' train - not sure of the date as they are unused, but definitely pre 1940 and that is headed Ffestiniog Railway.

The work's plate is indeed Livingston Thompson's, which was the second number 3 on the railway, filling the gap left by Mountaineer when that loco was scrapped.

Wandering off topic again, sorry. Why is Livingstone Thompson at NRM, York, and not on the railway. It seems odd that a new loco (I am referring in particular to David Lloyd George) rather than overhaul Livingston Thompson?

I'm not sure is the honest answer. Livingston Thompson would have had to be substantially rebuilt in order to cope with the demands of hauling modern trains. Perhaps they wanted to keep it as close as possible to original. If you see it in York, you will notice that there are a few parts missing which have been replaced with wooden parts - this work was done by Winson Engineering of Penrhyndeudraeth before they closed.

Thanks for the info, interesting titbit about the wooden parts.

You are quite correct, LAP. However, in conversation there are circumstances were I would not blink if the mutation/pronunciation "Vestiniog" was used. If nothing else, it's easier to say! It may not be "absolutely" correct but Welsh is a dynamic, living language. By way of example,
Bethesda is frequently mutated, in conversation, to Pesda.

"Ff" as in ffestiniog does not "Treiglo" In to F, as in Festiniog! In fact "Ff" doesn't mutate at all.

Only P,T,C; B,D,G; Ll,Rh,M Mutate!

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To change the company name would (I understand) need another act of Parliament, plus it would no longer then be the world's oldest surviving operating railway company!

Hmnn! would that stop it from crossing brittania Bridge at Porthmadog (sorry, Port Madoc for all the non natiolalists here!) Because, it will be even more caotic trying to drive through Port when the WHR will be crossint that bridge aswell!

It will be something for Hywel and Elfyn to do at westminster anyway!

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