Captain Scarlet
18 years ago
I was talking with a friend recently and he preceptively commented that the "Right To Roam" legislation might actually be working against mine explorers. Although it removes a possible obstacle, possibly it has introduced another. With the increase in visitors across their land, landowners may be taking a far more cautious attitude to open adits & shafts instructing their agents to block access to mines for explorers (perceived as potential compensation claimants).
STANDBY FOR ACTION!!!!...
Vanoord
18 years ago
This may seem familiar...

With the introduction of the Countryside and Rights of Way act (CROW), there seemed to be a great benefit to those of us who poke our noses into abandoned mines, on the basis that we would be able to walk right up to an adit quite legally.

However, the downside of this is that everybody else can do the same and this raises the nasty spectre of public liability claims if someone falls down a mineshaft - for example, such a thing did happen in one of the mines on the Moelwyns in north Wales and the adits were sealed off to prevent any more hikers falling down deep shafts and dying.

DEFRA have the following to say on the subject (considerably edited):

Quote:

Disused mines and quarries

The 1954 Act requires the owner (i.e. the person who owns the mineral rights) of a disused or abandoned mine to secure and maintain the surface entrance to every shaft or outlet with a sufficient enclosure or other device to prevent any person from accidentally entering the outlet or falling down the shaft. This statutory duty applies irrespective of whether or not the mine is accessible from a public place and will not be affected by the new right of access.

Occupiers liability

You have a lower duty of care to trespassers and to members of the public using the new right of access under the Occupiers Liability Act 1984. This Act requires you to take reasonable care that people do not suffer injury if you know there is a danger that they may come into contact with, and it is reasonable to expect you to offer some protection.

What do I do if there is an unsecured mine or quarry on my land?

If there is a disused mine on your land ... and have not already done so, you will need to take steps to secure the site. This is an existing requirement and is not related to the introduction of the new right of access.



The Chartered Institute of Environmental Health have this comment:

Quote:

Local authorities, mainly districts and unitaries, in mining areas should routinely inspect and record all mine openings. Where they are unsecured and constitute a statutory nuisance the authority should require them to be capped, gated or secured with a grill. They should be inspected every two or three years to ensure new openings have not appeared or the fencing has been vandalised.



The attitude of the Institute for Outdoor Learning is a little more refreshing:

Quote:

Warning sign and either vegetation management or say an inexpensive double row of barbed wire in respect of dangers that cannot be readily recognised. However, in the upper Nent Valley of Cumbria there is a system where mine entrances have warning signs and are gated but not locked. Locking was found to be counter productive requiring continual repairs caused by people forcing locks to gain access.



The problem that has been created by the CROW is a serious one and, in my opinion, will threaten access to many of the underground locations we enjoy. In the past, an owner could rely on there being a considerable barrier to their mine in the form of their own privtae property: in short, it's very easy to stop someone getting in to your mine if they can't get near the adit. Furthermore, if they do get to the adit then that would be by trespassing and the liabilities of the owner would - in practice - be somewhat reduced.

Once land becomes open access, the owner has to face up to a whole lot of new responsibility: that adit that was half-a-mile off the beaten track is suddenly on "public" land and Little Timmy can run in there after Fido, only to fall into a deep hole and never be seen again. There is a legal requirement for access to be restricted, be it by fences, warnings or gates and the need has been greatly magnified.

In the case of a private landowner, the problem is perhaps not too pressing: as long as efforts have been made to seal off access to dangerous workings, that will probably prove enough.

The real problem comes when the landowner is a company, as corporate liability is much better defined. While there should be no real reason why a company should be any more liable than an individual, a couple of things count against them: firstly, a company must have an auditable process of ensuring the safety of members of the public on its land - and if this fails, there are severe penalties, both financial against the company and criminal against the directors; secondly (and to my mind far more important), companies tend to have nice big public liability insurance policies - and if Little Timmy's parents visit a 'no win no fee' solicitor, then the bills are going to be big.

The upshoot of this is that we can expect landowners who have mines to start blocking them off if the land becomes Access Land. Is there an easy solution to this? Who knows, but it seems to me that we'd better enjoy things while we can and record as much history as we can by photographing it.

Hello again darkness, my old friend...
sparty_lea
18 years ago
They've already 'Blocked' lots of mines in the North Pennines, mostly its just a couple of posts and a few rails across adit mouths but there are new fences around open workings where they've run to surface, (make much better belays than the old ones 😉 ) some old rotted wood caps like those on Whiteheaps and Wellhope have been replaced.

I wouldn't say any of it has prevented access though it will make the fact that people are still using the mines more apparent when the odd rail comes loose, and that might cause further action.

I haven't seen anyone putting more substantial barriers up yet.


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Wyn
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18 years ago
The recent fencing of levels and shafts at Cwmystwyth was undertaken by the Crown Estates due to the CROW act.
However this has highlighted some of the levels, which weren't obvious to the casual visitor.
Captain Scarlet
18 years ago
Of course a landowner is going to have to consider how far to take this. What about caves ? steep embankments ? angry cows ? nettles ? slipping on a cow pat and banging your head on a cobble ?


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simonrl
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18 years ago
As an aside to this, I wonder whether there are more or fewer people actively mine exploring these days than there were 10 or 20 years ago? And whether this also has an effect on landowner's decisions.

I'd tend to agree that right to roam could work against us in that in the way suggested, especially coupled to the climate of suing and blaming others that sadly prevails 😞
my orders are to sit here and watch the world go by
Manicminer
18 years ago
It must be remembered that not all land is open access. Only the 'upland' in some parts are 'right to roam', green fields that are in the lower parts of the valley are out of bounds.
Gold is where you find it
JohnnearCfon
18 years ago
This website has an interactive map that shows what is OA land.

http://www.ccw.gov.uk/interactive-maps/countryside-access-map.aspx 

Also current OS Explorer maps have the OA land tinted.
Vanoord
16 years ago
I was looking for something else earlier and came across this, from the Welsh Assembly:

Quote:

Mines and quarries – abandoned/disused workings

There are two categories here :

a. Coal mines and other mines worked since 1872 – the landowner or person entitled to work the mine has a statutory duty physically to secure the entrances to the mine

b. Abandoned quarries and mines last worked before 1872 – the person entitled to work such a mine or quarry has a duty to secure an entrance if owing to its accessibility from a public road, right of way or place of public resort, it is a danger to members of the public. If this is not done and the local authority considers the mine/quarry to constitute a ‘statutory nuisance’, it can remedy it and recover costs from the person who was entitled to work the site.



I'm not convinced that this is the whole story as I seem to recall there being different cases depending on the material being worked, with coal having special circumstances?
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
robnorthwales
16 years ago
Quote:

The 1954 Act requires the owner (i.e. the person who owns the mineral rights) of a disused or abandoned mine to secure and maintain the surface entrance to every shaft or outlet with a sufficient enclosure or other device to prevent any person from accidentally entering the outlet or falling down the shaft. This statutory duty applies irrespective of whether or not the mine is accessible from a public place and will not be affected by the new right of access.


... from Vanoord's post earlier.

Now, I'm no lawyer, but this would seem to me that it is perfectly reasonable to place a gate or other grille on an adit, and warning signs, but without locking the entrance. That way, the 'accidental' entry is prevented, and anyone that still enters is taking liability for any consequences into their own hands.
Ihe legal principle is called 'volenti non fit injuram', which (roughly) translates as 'to those who volunteer, no harm is done'.
The Nent Valley system seems to cover any legal obligation (though it would be interesting to see what the HSE would do in the event of an incident, they would probably prosecute, win and then suffer a successful appeal)

Oh, and I think (because of Nationalisation), the Coal Authority have full legal obligation to close and secure any openings to old coal mines, once they are made aware of them.
Madness takes its toll, please carry exact change
royfellows
16 years ago
The 1954 act is of course, The Mines and Quarries Act”

Basically, the bottom line is what a particular authority regards as "Statutory Nuisance", and in some areas it is surprisingly lenient. Such as "within 50 metres of a public right of way", and the requirement then is not to fit steel grilles or bank vault type gates but a simple but adequate fence.

This has been discussed at forums of the Ceredigion Mines Group upon which I sit, the landowner requirement being "to prevent someone entering a mine or falling down a shaft by accident, but not to prevent someone entering workings deliberately"

This is the local authority attitude in that area.

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Vanoord
16 years ago
"royfellows" wrote:

the landowner requirement being "to prevent someone entering a mine or falling down a shaft by accident, but not to prevent someone entering workings deliberately"

This is the local authority attitude in that area.



If only the Forrestry Commission saw it that way...

There's a lot to be said for gates/doors/caps that can be opened with a large allen key, of the sort that the general public does not often carry around.
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
AR
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16 years ago
Or a large nut on a rusty thread which can't easily be removed with a pocket multitool, but can with an adjustable spanner....
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