I was found in the jungle and tamed by alpine cavers, following a period of unthinking adherance to dogma, I've been pondering my choice of gear.

My rope access is pretty "Cornish" (rather than that Tamar Valley lot). Big thick rope, bit of carpet over the edge, bloody great big drop, rack descender, foot ascender, sometimes a ropewalking rig.

I decided it was high time that I perhaps educated myself into a bit of finesse with ropes. It was time to get some books and have a read. I went on amazon and spunked some cash.

I picked up two books, both of which are very much worth owning.

"On Rope" Padgett (american take on SRT)

"Alpine Caving Techniques" 2 French blokes with a cover of a bloody big hole.

I noted that "Alpine Caving Techniques" was "the right" approach and everyone who dared think differently was a republican voting redneck and the rather lib-dem euro brown shoes brigade were far more smug and superior in their righteousness.

I hadn't given it much thought before, but you use Petzl and that's all you use. Everything else is crap made in China and you're going to snuff it if you even think about using it.

I have some vintage Petzl gear and a petzl rack and I like the metal catches. I like the way that they are "better". The new plasticy ones (I have in New Condition sat in my bag) don't get used because I don't like them.

I look at my equipment and it's all getting a bit sad. My caving supplies harness has been dunked in acid a few times, the ascenders have teeth like an elderly horse and the rack has got such a big groove down the middle, the bars are like camels feet.

I resent not being able to get new caving supplies stuff. I quite like their old racks and a couple of chums have got them too.....wearing out, getting more sad and I suppose we'd better get ourselves down to the local petzl dealership and buy some super gucci gubbins which allows us to join ranks with the alpine caving smug brigade.

Or not.

Whilst I have huge respect for the people who taught me alpine SRT, I'm wondering if it's got a bit bogged down in it's dogma. "You shouldn't use a rack descender as they are dangerous, nor should you do a big pitch, you should break a big shaft up into several rebelays and then descend on your petzl stop with all important breaking crab, that way, if you get knocked out, you won't plummet to your doom"

I've always found frogging a little bit inefficient. It's rather like trying to run with flippers on. The natural movement is walking, it's what were built for and what we do best.... I find semi-static ropes too bouncy as well. I want to ascend efficiently.

Here is where the froggies and the other alpine fag smokers have gone wrong. They've let their own dogma handicap them.

Chatting to some of the real old hands of caving....the lot who were there as SRT developed, it seems that they were experimenting and succeeding with innovations. The Americans are still mucking about with various ropewalking methods and I've decided that they are most certainly worth revisiting.

Sadly, Petzl do not do anything beyond the requirements of the usual alpine SRT. I suppose Monsieur Petzl is probably not going to jump into his Chevy and go out and shoot some n&^%s.

It is interesting to note that the classic texts of SRT including Montgomery's "Single Rope Techniques" seem to celebrate different ways of overcoming a physical challenge.

I wonder when it slipped into a dogma of equipment and technique?

I have a big beady eye on what I'd like my kit to be like and the topic turned to chest rollers. I want a well made rack descender and I want to ideally perfect a decent ropewalking rig as sadly, most of the classic trips I haven't done are down stupidly deep shafts. My mantra is that the less energy I waste, the more energy I will have for that unforseen swing in/rope fight/cage struggle at the top.

The "On Rope" book by Padgett made me realise that the yanks have probably got a better approach (well, most certainly a more flexible and outcome focussed one) to doing rope stuff.

So the question is, where do the yanks get their stuff from?

I don't work for these people, but this site seems a very decent source of high quality kit.

http://shop.pmirope.com/index.aspx 

I wonder if the more free willed of you lot can inform such an ignorant caving pygmy as myself what other alternatives there are and furthermore, whether any of you would be interested in a group purchase.

Can't see much difference in the PMI ascenders and the Petzl ones. Descenders are a different matter though!

Rather than going for septic or cheeze eating kit, what about the spagetti stuffers:

http://www.kong.it/pr_dscn_new.htm 

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Reading that lot, I am still trying to work out where the greatest level of dogma really lies..... 😉

I have an almost unused Caving Supplies rack about 20 years old.
I think maybe next time down Cornwall I leave it with Roy M for you Stu.

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Wow! Cheers Roy!

Hugh has a 6 bar one which he dragged out when we did Phoenix. I was in awe!

One thing I noted is the wear on the sheath of my rope. I gather that a lot of it is from my ascenders, which get repeatedly scraped.

The PMI ascenders work more on a jam principle, rather than a spike-and-stick.

I think I might take a punt on a couple of their jammers and a chest roller.

It is sad that there is so little choice - Petzl do seem to have cornered the market.

I miss the caving supplies harness which was a corking bit of kit.

I now use a Petzl hand jammer after my much loved Clog expedition gave up the ghost.

Before it got nicked I used a JRat chest harness which I was very keen on.

I guess the problem is CE stamping which only the big boys like Petzl can afoard.


Good luck with the American kit - let us know how you get on ( have you checked out Inner Mountain outfitters?).

I recall coming across some kit by a German manufacturer a while back but right now I can't remember their name....

It seems that the old UK manufacturers like CS and Clog left the market but no-one other than Pretzl filled the gap, so we've ended up with the situation where everyone uses their kit because it's the only thing readily available. Going back to the original point, I quite like the American way of putting a lock-off lug onto one of the top bars, and as for CS racks, isn't it possible to replace the bars yourself if you have basic metalworking facilities; a bit of cutting, drilling and filing of some aluminium or stainless bar?

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It seems that Caving Supplies were from the era of proper experimental caving, before the rot set in. I gather there were a lot more smaller companies doing various home-spun things.

It's a shame that people have largely lost the sense of "can" reading "On Rope" there is a fair section on how to sew your own webbing together. It really is a case of "Since you've made yourself a chest roller, you're going to require an optimised harness and since one isn't available off the shelf, here's some information about the different sorts of webbing available and how to stitch it".

I have got beyond the "making stuff in the shed" phase, particularly since the pikies nicked the old Myford lathe I had in my folks garage. I bet they weighed it in as well.

The more I think about it, the more I am coming around to the fact that Pezl ascenders are overly hard on your rope and the quality isn't actually that good.

Some of the Singing Rock stuff looks to be good quality and reminds me of the 90's petzl stuff I like so much.

It seems that the take from the modern alpine caving school of thinking is that you use a "hybrid" ropewalker, where you use a foot ascender and a knee ascender as well as a croll and use your hands to steady yourself. Anything more is considered overkill and hugely fiddly and complicated. I'm aware chest rollers were pretty rudimentary and fiddly things, but like the rest of gear, they've come on a long way. It was actually the PMI chest roller which made me look at the rest of their gear. I've come to a conclusion that the biggest obstacle to ascending efficiently is what goes on above your belly button. I've tried fine tuning it and the best I can do is by complimetarily walking up the rope with my hands. I think it should be an easy task to stroll up a 100m shaft hardly using any energy.

I may come across as a bit glib, but I'm quite keen on developing a highly efficient and respectable way of doing big shafts. I just happen to think that frogging isn't it. :)

Another danger I found was that it is quite possible to hook your knee and foot ascenders on and start crawling up the rope......only to forget your chest ascender. I avoided hanging upside-down about 10m up quite recently. A roller makes a lot more sense. I've tried a bungee and carabiner and that was rubbish. It's got to be a roller, I think.

The Caving Supplies rack has more chubby bars than the petzl and does a 4 bar descent better. I am reluctant to take a bar out on the petzl as the increase seems a little bit more marked (for me as a huge gorilla). I think a 6 bar like the original caving supplies job is better for the bigger stuff.

Having said, my bars are quite worn.

"Alpine Caving Techniques" 2 French blokes with a cover of a bloody big hole.

Is no-one else slightly worried by the way they suggest 'having a wrestle' as a way to keep warm while you're waiting at a pitch.

Very continental 😮

Don't get me wrong, I have total respect from you if you're willing to experiment with kit and try new stuff, but the fact that everyone I go out with is using identical Petzl kit does make my mind feel more at ease knowing that anyone could step into anyone elses kit and use it in an emergency rather than thinking what the f*** now ?!?!?

Is no-one else slightly worried by the way they suggest 'having a wrestle' as a way to keep warm while you're waiting at a pitch.

I thought that was what everyone did

I was in at the beginning of SRT for caving in this country, back in the early '70's, in fact I did a demonstration ascent of High Tor (unofficially) on prussick knots, slow, but got there!
The jammer of choice back then was the Jumar, really nice bit of kit until the cavers got hold of it and found out the cast alloy frame broke if it got a bit of a knock.
The clog was developed in one or two different designs (including the Croll) and this seemed to dominate the spelio market for a few years for "frogging" until ropewalking took over, then the market exploded with all and sundry inventing cam, rather than springed, ascenders, I still have a few examples somewhere in a bag in my back cellar, along with my "Willans sit harness" and chest girdle of indeterminate manufacture, none of which fit anymore (I was a "thin man" back then).
I know my CS, 7 bar rack is in there as well, 30 years old, done maybe 1000 ft, and perhaps my old faithful figure of 8, Anyone starting a Serious, Sustainable, Caving Museum is welcome to use it to rig up a dummy to show what it was like back then, I could even show you (but not demonstrate) various ways to abseil with only a rope and ascend with just a couple of strings!

Reference; making replacement bars for rack descenders, don't use straight aluminium (sideways pressure is critical), use Duralloy, I am sure other folk on here will know the best grade, drilling the stuff is not difficult but getting the holes in the right place is, Jig up properly. This stuff comes in 16ft lengths, I am sure there is a market for someone to set up a simple production system.

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Another danger I found was that it is quite possible to hook your knee and foot ascenders on and start crawling up the rope......only to forget your chest ascender. I avoided hanging upside-down about 10m up quite recently. A roller makes a lot more sense. I've tried a bungee and carabiner and that was rubbish. It's got to be a roller, I think.

I might be missing the point but...... If you are going to simply replace the croll with a chest roller won't that make it impossible to rest taking the load your sit harness? Whilst I appreciate that it is possible to rest standing on your foot and knee ascenders there maybe times when you are completely knackered when being able to rest taking weight on the harness is a must

Hand jammer on a cowstail....

Hand jammer on a cowstail....

So, cowstail to where?, sit harness, why not put it on your chest box with a jammer?

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Hand jammer on a cowstail....

So, cowstail to where?, sit harness, why not put it on your chest box with a jammer?

I was thinking Sit Harness.

Off the top of my head, several systems used a "third jumar"

I think you'd probably straighten your legs and hug the rope to take a rest.

I'd probably rig it so that I'd be able to switch from ropewalking to normal frogging as I can pretty much do it in the dark. As far as I'm concerned, flexibility is the name of the game.

I too have an old CS rack I bought at NAMHO 2000 and have never used. I keep it as part of a spare SRT kit.

As for dogma, a great deal of that stems from 'horror stories' about people feeding racks the wrong way round, pigs tails (thats the curly bit that forms the ring on the bottom of a CS rack for instance) coming undone (don't ask me how!) enough for one book to suggest that these be brazed to stop any movement. :blink:
Later, and as many of us remember, we had the influence of Brussells impacting on safety equipment, each piece of which needed to be tested to destruction and a CE certificate awarded.
CS made some bloody good helmets called Protex, they knocked spots of the others and were cheaper. This is where large firms like Petzl had the foresight and cash backing, probably from the EEC, to invest in all the Euro HSE bollocks at the time. This in turn fuelled a false state of paranoia amongst the commercial side of the caving community - outward bound groups and the like - and thousands of pounds worth of perfectly good and well maintained kit was dumped to comply with the legislation, and huge quantities of Petzl kit was bought to replace it; this was the Petzl explosion. The insurance companies loved it too, so once again the money-go-round favoured the corporates.
Back to the CS Protex helmet, production stopped with that and other CS safety equipment purely because the cost of having it tested and certified was too high. Squeezed out by the corporates once again
When all this legislation came in, the real cavers / explorers, the 'grey beards', just huffed and carried on as before using classic abseil techniques and prussick loops or whatever was their bag. Rescue teams and the like had a duty to comply and team kit needed to be spot on. Personal kit however was generally overlooked and left to the individual to take care of. This was the real start of the spread of SRT dogma. There were so many arguments about techniques and equipment that fiction became embedded in fact which really muddied the waters for everyone, especially people entering into the pastime for the first time; a dangerous precedent for any novice. 😠
So....a lot of this legislation is to blame for the continuance of the plethora of stories and rumours about kit.
If it works for you, doesn't kill you or endanger others, or is ever likely to, then you probably have the right mixture of hardware and common sense; the latter being in very short supply these days, especially on the other side of the channel. :curse:

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CS made some bloody good helmets called Protex, they knocked spots of the others and were cheaper. This is where large firms like Petzl had the foresight and cash backing, probably from the EEC, to invest in all the Euro HSE bollocks at the time. This in turn fuelled a false state of paranoia amongst the commercial side of the caving community - outward bound groups and the like - and thousands of pounds worth of perfectly good and well maintained kit was dumped to comply the legislation, and huge quantities of Petzle kit was bought to replace it; this was the Petzle explosion. The insurance companies loved it too, so once again the money-go-round favoured the corporates.
Back to the CS Protex helmet, production stopped with that and other CS safety equipment purely because the cost of having it tested and certified was too high. Squeezed out by the corporates again

My current lid is a CS protex which has given nearly twenty years of sterling service. Unfortuately the cradle and straps are shot. No worries I thought, I'll buy a new one - wrong. As with SRT kit the only game in town is Petzl.

When I were a lad there was a choice of half a dozen or so brands, Petzl being one amongst the many and certainly not what i would choose given a choice.

Bah bloody humbug

I've got a new old stock protex and they do come up from time to time. They are the only helmet as far as I'm concerned.

I've got a couple of them, but sadly, my worn one has a feel to it like a familar old shoe. The new one feels a bit "helmety" (if you know what I mean). I barely know I'm wearing my Protex.

The dogma surrounding racks goes from a few nasty ones where all the bars were "flippable". (a lot of yank racks are still like this). If you rig it backwards, the middle bar pops out and you drop. Both caving supplies and petzl adopted the fixed third and first bars. Rich has an old Caving Supplies suicide rack, you just have to have your wits about you when you rig it.

I think the demise of the caving supplies harness is very sad indeed. Mine is looking a bit sorry. I suppose they come up from time to time NOS.

It's a shame that PMI don't have a UK distributor. They have one in Sweden and Norway, but not the sort of stuff I want. I'm reluctant about shipping stuff from the states, in case it gets clobbered for VAT/Duty. Bloody parasitic government.

The dogma surrounding racks goes from a few nasty ones where all the bars were "flippable". (a lot of yank racks are still like this). If you rig it backwards, the middle bar pops out and you drop. Both caving supplies and petzl adopted the fixed third and first bars. Rich has an old Caving Supplies suicide rack, you just have to have your wits about you when you rig it.

I think the demise of the caving supplies harness is very sad indeed. Mine is looking a bit sorry. I suppose they come up from time to time NOS.

Not if you do this.


I second your coments on c s harnesses .simp[ly perfect balance.

Re; helmets, I suppose my Texelex is now non u??
Re; Racks, a basic knowledge of weaving is all that is required, mind you, I am assuming that underground explorers have an I.Q. above 90? - - Perhaps not, as they wouldn't do it otherwise;D 😉

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