carnkie
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16 years ago
Came across this photo which may or not be of interest.
Turkestsan around 1870.
Shows a man casting.
🔗Personal-Album-272-Image-169[linkphoto]Personal-Album-272-Image-169[/linkphoto][/link]
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
Wormster
16 years ago
OOOOHHH, tres interssant,

Lost wax or core and sand method?

discuss..............
Better to regret something you have done - than to regret something you have not done.
carnkie
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16 years ago
Sorry Wormster can't shed any light on this.
🔗Personal-Album-272-Image-170[linkphoto]Personal-Album-272-Image-170[/linkphoto][/link]

I found this interesting.
A tin smith.
🔗Personal-Album-272-Image-171[linkphoto]Personal-Album-272-Image-171[/linkphoto][/link]

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
Liquidator
16 years ago
How can you tell from the picture that it's a tin smith?

The chains and other stuff hanging up would have been iron wouldn't they?
AR
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16 years ago
The tools are sheet working hammers for raising and suchlike and he's got a small stake anvil so tin/coppersmith is a fair call for his occupation. Quite why the chains are there, I'm not sure!

Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
Redwinch
16 years ago
"Wormster" wrote:

OOOOHHH, tres interssant,

Lost wax or core and sand method?

discuss..............



Sand/loam casting is most likely, lost wax is usually for very detailed small castings, as for the photo of the tinsmith and chains, maybe a case of multi-skilling ? (I hate that phrase!!)
Still supporting Rampgill. last time I looked
ICLOK
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16 years ago
I do casting of Railway bits and bobs and I hand mould stuff when I can so the first pic is excellent and shows the mould being made around a pattern, the pattern will probably made of wax or something silmilar . Once the mud/sand/clay mould is made they will cook/heat the mould to melt the wax and harden the mould off, a clay with good refractory properties usually being used if available. as the wax melts it can be poured back into the the wax pattern mould thus making efficient re use of the wax. The now empty hard mould would probably be packeded in sand on the casting floor and a lid added to the mould with a runner and riser to allow metal in and gas/air out. The pattern in this case cannot be removed as in modern split box casting as it is double undercut.
If the wax were to be left in the mould it would be hugely wasteful on the scale shown being vapourised as the metal went in, so the above method seems most probable. I have seen this type of casting in China in some really out lying poor regions and its great to watch.

In making smaller item they would probably use lost wax proper for things like brass knobs, lock components etc but the moulding process would be the same in essence but they would not bother recovering the tiny bit of wax.

Tin Smith can in some cases simply mean a metal worker, even small iron smithies used to work other metal including casting lead and bits of brass, the material probably just refers to their primary metals worked.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Wormster
16 years ago
"ICLOK" wrote:

I do casting of Railway bits and bobs and I hand mould stuff when I can so the first pic is excellent and shows the mould being made around a pattern, the pattern will probably made of wax or something silmilar . Once the mud/sand/clay mould is made they will cook/heat the mould to melt the wax and harden the mould off, a clay with good refractory properties usually being used if available. as the wax melts it can be poured back into the the wax pattern mould thus making efficient re use of the wax. The now empty hard mould would probably be packeded in sand on the casting floor and a lid added to the mould with a runner and riser to allow metal in and gas/air out. The pattern in this case cannot be removed as in modern split box casting as it is double undercut.
If the wax were to be left in the mould it would be hugely wasteful on the scale shown being vapourised as the metal went in, so the above method seems most probable. I have seen this type of casting in China in some really out lying poor regions and its great to watch.

In making smaller item they would probably use lost wax proper for things like brass knobs, lock components etc but the moulding process would be the same in essence but they would not bother recovering the tiny bit of wax.



Ahh yes - Investment casting, such a lovely way of producing delicate work.

Spilt box and core molding - a good way of mass production.

(In a past life I specalised in doing this at college, along with blacksmithing - something that I'm looking to get back into, after a break of 20 odd years.)
Better to regret something you have done - than to regret something you have not done.
ICLOK
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16 years ago
Am quite into this field as I make locomotive nameplates and other stuff for locomotives and enjoy hand moulding.

I did some archaeological experiments in my Garden casting replica broaches and other stuff in small clay, sand moulds, making wax patterns and so on. I always had a theory that large roman coins were cast blanks as I've found afew when occasionally metal detecting, seems I was right from experimental archaeology done on Time Time as they certainly could not have been stamped as way to heavy and thick, others now agree too. I have a wonderful "Roman Soldier on horse Back" statue bought from a mate and the hollow casting of it is a work of art given it was cast 1,850 years ago approx from a hand modelled wax/soap carving. i harranged him to death to get it as the casting is so good and has been authenticated to that era. When you think of the fine work carried out in open moulds, clay moulds etc its remarkable how clever our forefathers were. Especially in casting Silver jewelry etc,

Believe it or not you can still find little foundries and smithies doing just what the picture showed, such as in Morocco and have seen similar in China and even in Turkey in the East they do little castings there, nothing big just small non ferrous. Not a moulding box in site and they have never heard of Air Set or resin Sand! :thumbsup:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Wormster
16 years ago
Iclock,

Have you tried taking an impression in a cuttlefish bone? I know that some jwellers (the Great Frog in London) use this method.

Build up a model of your item to be cast in wax or base metal then impress inbetween cuttlefish bones, cut out pouring holes and risers, clamp, then fill.
Better to regret something you have done - than to regret something you have not done.
ICLOK
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16 years ago
Saw that on Time Team and according to John French (a field archaeologist) it works really well if you can get the clamping right to minimise metal flowing from edges.... might have a go at that for a laugh..... here we go again!

I usually use lead first at home to prove the theory and if it works brass up at my mates foundry where he lets me play!




Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
JohnnearCfon
16 years ago
You had better watch it ICLOK, giving out all those details about Roman coins, or our friend in Telford might put some on ebay! 😉

Fascinating photos and info though.
carnkie
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16 years ago
Forgot this one. Might as well complete the set. Thanks for all the info. guys. 🙂

🔗Personal-Album-272-Image-172[linkphoto]Personal-Album-272-Image-172[/linkphoto][/link]
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
Morlock
16 years ago





Spilt box and core molding - a good way of mass production.

(quote]

The boxes are called "Cope & "Drag" if I remember, I started work in a foundry that was changing over to general engineering in the sixties.

Casting was also part of the MECP craft apprentice course.

ICLOK
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16 years ago
John, its a bit late for Telford stampings limited to join the party... 😉

:offtopic: I know....
Ebay is awash with replica roman coins and if I'm truthful I only ever buy them from dealers on Ebay I know and trust... modern jewelry casting techniques mean gold, silver coins are a doddle and some forgers have dies made in eastern europe (the dies cost about £300 and about £1000 over here) from which they strike almost perfect facimilies. Condition is a big give away but they even put wear marks on them by tumbling and rubbing. 😠
The same with many antiquities too such as bronzes. Hence the really nice cast pieces with full background cost a bomb...


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
ICLOK
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16 years ago
OOOOOPs and thanks for posting the pics Carn.... fascinating! 🙂
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
JohnnearCfon
16 years ago
The Welsh Slate Museum, Llanberis, have a film called "Craftsmen of Dinorwig" although I don't think they show it now. It goes into great detail about the pattern making, mould making, and casting. Although for the casting demonstration they use lead. The film points out that normally iron item would have been cast there.
AR
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16 years ago
You're right about Roman coins being cast ICLOK, coin moulds have been found on sites in the UK (See R.F. Tylecote's "Prehistory of Metallurgy in the British Isles" for more info). I certainly wouldn't trust anything of this ilk for sale on Ebay, and it's amazing how quickly you can produce a patina on copper alloys by burial in a dungheap.....
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
ICLOK
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16 years ago
I saw an 'aging' demo at a sunday market... they got brand new brass door knobs, quick run over with fine wire wool, dipped it in the patternating fluid and voila.... 100 years old in an instant....

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Wormster
16 years ago
"JohnnearCfon" wrote:

The Welsh Slate Museum, Llanberis, have a film called "Craftsmen of Dinorwig" although I don't think they show it now. It goes into great detail about the pattern making, mould making, and casting. Although for the casting demonstration they use lead. The film points out that normally iron item would have been cast there.



OOOOOHHH I remember that one, didn't they film an old boy setting up a mold of a gear wheel directly into sand (no core boxes etc) and as you point out casting in lead??
Better to regret something you have done - than to regret something you have not done.
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