This is degenerating into a feeding frenzy of URBEX bashing.
If errors were made it appears to have been relative to timing and no doubt lessons have been learnt.

I agree with Roy. Overdue parties on through trips are not that uncommon a cause of call-outs in the caving world, at least that's my impression of rescues in Ogof Ffynnon Ddu that occur from time to time.

Credit to The kwan for posting his account here. This tells us that the trip started late. Might it have been possible to revise the "overdue" time before setting off? Or was there no mobile reception to allow this? Might one person have been prepared to sacrifice his place on the trip to go back and let someone know? Not a criticism, just a suggestion. If an OFD through trip were delayed by a significant amount I think I would have gone back and either revised the route ticket on the board or selected a later finish peg to hang the ticket on.

This is degenerating into a feeding frenzy of URBEX bashing.
If errors were made it appears to have been relative to timing and no doubt lessons have been learnt.

I agree with Roy. Overdue parties on through trips are not that uncommon a cause of call-outs in the caving world, at least that's my impression of rescues in Ogof Ffynnon Ddu that occur from time to time.

Credit to The kwan for posting his account here. This tells us that the trip started late. Might it have been possible to revise the "overdue" time before setting off? Or was there no mobile reception to allow this? Might one person have been prepared to sacrifice his place on the trip to go back and let someone know? Not a criticism, just a suggestion. If an OFD through trip were delayed by a significant amount I think I would have gone back and either revised the route ticket on the board or selected a later finish peg to hang the ticket on.

My last text message to our above ground contact was from the carpark and giving our final number and our set off time and I know that he would have adjusted our exit time accordingly as he informed my wife on the telephone that we were being "over optimistic" with our estimated trip time and that we were probably running late, but my concerned wife insisted that he make the call as arranged at the time agreed time despite his advice about our likely time miscalculation.

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That's interesting as it was only a few days ago that I was discussing the idea that it is better to use an unrelated contact for call-out as they are less emotionally involved.

my concerned wife insisted that he make the call as arranged at the time agreed time despite his advice about our likely time miscalculation.

if in doubt blame the wife :thumbsup:

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the thread on 28dayslater is still there as far as I am aware but you will probably have to register to see it.

Despite being banned, I registered a new account there. It seems it has been moved so mere plebs can't see it. Any reason for this, as you seem open enough on here.

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I feel obliged to put in my tuppence worth.

1. Taking a group as large as 14 on a trip like that is a fundamental error of planning. I'm not surprised that it took so long and whilst there may be ways of speeding things up, the group was too big.

2. A trip like this requires respect: whilst it's perfectly possible to get people through who have very little ropework experience (been there), they should either be very much in the minority or (preferably) not there until they've had sufficient real-world experience.

It is, thankfully, to be lauded that there was sufficient equipment to enable pitches to be rigged or give a chance of self-rescue.

Similarly, better that someone did call out the MRTs and the CRO - something that would have been much more important if there had been a problem rather than just a time over-run.

I hope that lessons have been learned - and certainly not the of the sort that it's possible to take absolute beginners on a trip like this.

Whilst mine exploration is relatively benign, it's only going to take one high-profile rescue for a lot of adits to get sealed off and access lost for a generation.

Hopefully this incident will act as the warning it should.

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the thread on 28dayslater is still there as far as I am aware but you will probably have to register to see it.

Despite being banned, I registered a new account there. It seems it has been moved so mere plebs can't see it. Any reason for this, as you seem open enough on here.

Yes you need to be a registered member with a minimum post count of 8 or 10 moderated posts (I think) before you can see the general forums and chatbox, I know that some people here can see it as their names appear at the foot of the page, it is still there.
Although It was moved to members sections because when the article appeared in the grough outdoor magazine stating 17 people were involved it was just considered that anything in the thread like comments and replies from members etc may be taken out of context if seized on by the press, although it I suppose anyone could cut and paste the article elsewhere.

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I feel obliged to put in my tuppence worth.

1. Taking a group as large as 14 on a trip like that is a fundamental error of planning. I'm not surprised that it took so long and whilst there may be ways of speeding things up, the group was too big.

2. A trip like this requires respect: whilst it's perfectly possible to get people through who have very little ropework experience (been there), they should either be very much in the minority or (preferably) not there until they've had sufficient real-world experience.

It is, thankfully, to be lauded that there was sufficient equipment to enable pitches to be rigged or give a chance of self-rescue.

Similarly, better that someone did call out the MRTs and the CRO - something that would have been much more important if there had been a problem rather than just a time over-run.

I hope that lessons have been learned - and certainly not the of the sort that it's possible to take absolute beginners on a trip like this.

Whilst mine exploration is relatively benign, it's only going to take one high-profile rescue for a lot of adits to get sealed off and access lost for a generation.

Hopefully this incident will act as the warning it should.

I have personally learned quite a few lessons from this episode and and yes 14 was a large group and we had two experienced people with rope skills at each side of every zip, traverse or drop and on the bridge were you have to change over in the middle we also had an experienced lad in the middle to make sure that it was done properly, safety was paramount it really was, although for me my concern was not the Creosor SRT bits as I am no expert but I was more fearfull about the journey out to adit 9 as I have been in more than once and know how shocking the roof is in parts but we took our time and remained quiet and moved one at a time through the worst bits and believe me it was difficult to do this knowing that a whole army of emergency services were likely to be meeting you at any minute.

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The first few chambers in Croesor are very flakey, the result of pillar robbing and massive roof collapses. It's a matter of time before the way through is sealed off and hopefully it won't land on someone's head.

The big risk there is that for whatever reason a group gets most of the way through and can't get out via Rhosydd - the reverse is a lot more difficult and if there are some non-SRT-competent among them, it's probably going to be a CRO call, with all the resultant problems that's going to entail.

The bits you can plan for aren't that bad - it's the unexpected that will bite you.

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OK, just found this thread, and while I think The Kwan has done a great job of putting his point forward, i think it's only fair that I put my head above the parapet.

I'm Bigjobs, and I ran this trip.

I've done the CRTT a number of times before, and know and respect how dangerous it can be. I didn't think it was going to be a walk in the park, but rather that it was going to be a long hard slog. I was right.

We took enough kit to not only make it through, but to turn around and go back again if needed, with an incapacitated member if need be.

While I regret that the we ran over and the CRO was called out, it was a decision I took that kept the group together to make our way out as one group, and I'm happy with that decision. Rhosydd is notorious for turning people round and people getting lost, and while we had maps for the majority of group members, they're not that easy to follow unless you actually know the layout properly.

As The Kwan has said, I'll happily answer any serious questions you may have, if you'll answer some i may have too

As The Kwan has said, I'll happily answer any serious questions you may have, if you'll answer some i may have too

Fire away then, I've done the trip at least 3 times, and as you're no doubt aware have been visiting since the early 1970's when one mine was used to store explosives and we used to do the "through trip" (number 9 addit, incline and climb out of the twyll by candle light!)

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I believe that prior to this trip taking place, there was a thread on here where people were of the opinion that we were all going to die. I also believe that someone made a pic making light of this.

I believe this was probably in the mods section, or at least somewhere where the general public wouldn't have seen it.

Is this true?

Hello Big Jobs - we've met before - you came up to Nenthead a few years ago with Ed.

As an admin on here I can say absolutely that no such thread or picture has ever appeared on this site. Ed & other admins will doubtless confirm as much.

Cheers,
Rich

Hello Big Jobs - we've met before - you came up to Nenthead a few years ago with Ed.

As an admin on here I can say absolutely that no such thread or picture has ever appeared on this site to the best of my knowledge. Ed & other admins will doubtless confirm as much.

Cheers,
Rich

Hi Mate,

That is so good to hear, it would appear that I've been a victim of the rumour mill too. I'm sorry if my reaction to that wrong information has been the same reaction I've called people out on. I guess that I need to take the lesson that I've asked other people to take.

As you've answered my question quickly and irrevocably, i'll happily answer any questions you'd like to know.

Hi Admin too.

As RJV said if such a thread and picture exist they are most definitely not on this site and never have been.

I think its only natural for everyones imagination to run wild about whats happening in the 'secret' areas of other peoples websites.

Yes, there is an area that only we Admins can see, but rather than being packed full of 'elite' trips and secret daring deeds as some people might think the reality is extremely mundane.

Its things like sorting out the calendar / photo contests and the early stages of arranging future events (oh and taking the **** out of SimonRL of course 🙂 )

I have a question for 'Bigjobs'.

If you have a group of beginners, why make life difficult for yourself taking them on a trip that has a 'reputation'?
Why not take them on a trip down an easier mine, Cwmorthin for example?

Bit like taking a caving beginner on a trip down King Pot rather than Valley Entrance.

I have a question for 'Bigjobs'.

If you have a group of beginners, why make life difficult for yourself taking them on a trip that has a 'reputation'?
Why not take them on a trip down an easier mine, Cwmorthin for example?

Bit like taking a caving beginner on a trip down King Pot rather than Valley Entrance.

Totally agree.

I also have a question, are any of these competent and trained SRT guys stood either side of the ropes etc any of the same crew who thought it would be a good idea to abseil off the bridge in cwmorthin, with no back up, or safety and attached to something that really isnt the best idea to attach to?!

Whom when pointed out how stupid it was, just berated me and I believe all my posts and further threads got deleted about it.

I have a question for 'Bigjobs'.

If you have a group of beginners, why make life difficult for yourself taking them on a trip that has a 'reputation'?
Why not take them on a trip down an easier mine, Cwmorthin for example?

Bit like taking a caving beginner on a trip down King Pot rather than Valley Entrance.

Totally agree.

I also have a question, are any of these competent and trained SRT guys stood either side of the ropes etc any of the same crew who thought it would be a good idea to abseil off the bridge in cwmorthin, with no back up, or safety and attached to something that really isnt the best idea to attach to?!

Whom when pointed out how stupid it was, just berated me and I believe all my posts and further threads got deleted about it.

Droid,

It never started off as a mass trip through CRTT with that many inexperienced members. It started off as something for a few of us to do on Sunday while on a meet for a totally different thing, however I'm known for looking at something from a different angle and seeing what's needed to make it happen. I've also never been one to exclude someone from a trip if I can accommodate them, so as the group grew, my plans changed, as some experienced people pulled out due to to other commitments, I replaced them with experienced friends. Once it was in my head that I could do it, i was more focussed on finding answers than thinking that I should call it off. This is something I need to work on.

J25GTi,

I very much doubt that was any of our group. We had planned on going into cwmorthin on saturday afternoon to use the rigging that go underground (?) had placed to show people what to do, but after the zipline and setting up the tents, it was far too late, so we used a rockface at the campsite. None of our group live local to the area, and I would have known they had been in there previously.


It may give you some peace of mind to know that I've spoken with some people about the whole trip, how it started, and how it ended up like it did, and while I'm happy with the decisions that were taken, I've agreed to write down an extensive trip report for myself, including all decisions that were made, from the trip inception to getting back to the cars, and looking at each decision to see if they could have been made differently/better for next time. Once I've finished that, I'll be sitting down and discussing it with them. I'll not give any names, but they are cavers with many years experience between them, and I trust them implicitly.

So the CRTT was an excercise in problem solving and inclusion. That would be very laudable had it not inconvienienced some people and worried the crap out of others.

Seems that it was an example of one person's ego overcoming common sense.

I hope you DO learn from this experience. Mine exploration doesn't need this sort of coverage.

There were 2 people that were worried, someone's wife, and someone's mum.

I'm not in a position to say why or how that happened, however I'm sure The Kwan will be along shortly to explain that one.

As for my ego overcoming common sense. I'll readily agree that I have an ego, and sometimes it gets me into situations that are well outside my comfort zone, but this is not one of them. That ego took a back seat the moment that I was responsible for the safety of other people. Getting people through safely was the primary concern. If I'd have thought that that wasn't achievable, then I really would have called it off.

Matt, the guy that I'd trusted as a second has pulled me before, and stopped me going further than he thought I could do. He was right then, and as I've said in other places, I've always been of the opinion that if I can't explain what I'm doing, then I shouldn't be doing it.

Everyone that came to me prior to the trip with concerns had my plans explained to them, and they went away having had their concerns addressed.

I'd happily have done the same for anyone, if only so I could make sure that what I was planning was doable. If they had come up with something that I hadn't thought of, I would have factored that in, changed my plans, or called it off.

As for the inconvenience to the cave rescue organisation, apart from the underestimation of the trip duration, that stems from a decision I made at the exit to the boat. People were saying that we should send some people ahead to race out and extend the exit expectation. As I was responsible for everyone, I was of the opinion that my decisions should be based on their safety, and nothing else. It was paramount to me that they all make it out without injury, and everything else was secondary to that. So i decided to stay as one group, not only because I wasn't 100% sure that anyone sent ahead wouldn't get lost, but because I didn't know that I wouldn't need those people further on into the trip.

While the CRO call out is regrettable, I knew that it was going to happen once it hit midnight, but the choice as I saw it was either having a call out for a late arrival, or having a call out for a serious injury from people rushing and cutting corners.

I still don't know if I made the right decision on that one, but as everyone made it out alive and without injury, I'm happy enough that it was the best of two bad choices.