Our dig is currently only 5 mins from the entrance, hence the tighter timing.

I wondered what had caused that escalation.

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Love the new tag line Mr Fellows, I think I know who you're referring to; a trip that was almost indistinguishable from a rescue after the third hour. 😉

Hope you're well.

John S

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With regard to call out times - I always try and give myself a couple of hours lee way - Thus if I leave a call out time of (say) 2300hrs I will try to be out at 1900hrs.

I usually give an expected time then the "panic" time is one hour later.

I agree 6 hours is far too long, but 30 minutes is not really enough. In some case I would make the "panic" time 90 minutes later, certainly no more.

So your lying at the bottom of a hole with a broken ankle or bleeding thinking i am coming up to my call out time, thinking that some one is going to come and rescue me soon. Do you want them to wait another 90 minutes or them to actually make the call out on time?

The woman trapped in JH with a broken ankle and a deep cut recently was certainly glad when cave rescue turned up when they were supposed to rather than waiting any longer.

Its a no brainer really. If you set a call out time, aim to be out before it or on time. If you know your not going to be out on time, give a later call out. The person sat at home looking at their watch is not going to know that you have suddenly found a new passage with tonnes of interesting things in.

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Absolutely right, Edd. The instructions must be crystal clear. If you have not heard from me by HH:MM, call out the rescue. YOU make the judgement on leeway, and should NOT expect your callout person to have to worry for any time about whether to call or not. If you want to add to the callout instructions, simply say don't expect a call before X, and make the rescue call at Y.

I'm usually quite cautious about call out times but i've been caught out three times in my 20 odd years of going underground: once by getting overexcited at a new bit i found unexpectedly open; once by losing reception (and then phone battery) in remote country; and once by getting a bit lost in a stooped congested system where wayfinding took a looooong time.

Set properly, and based on a sensible assessment of the time a trip will take, a call out is an essential backup and the inconvenience of a 'false alarm' pales against the hazard of waiting for too long injured, incapacitated or blocked in.

This fallibility might bring down a rain of critics, but I do make mistakes sometimes.

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I usually give an expected time then the "panic" time is one hour later.

I agree 6 hours is far too long, but 30 minutes is not really enough. In some case I would make the "panic" time 90 minutes later, certainly no more.

So your lying at the bottom of a hole with a broken ankle or bleeding thinking i am coming up to my call out time, thinking that some one is going to come and rescue me soon. Do you want them to wait another 90 minutes or them to actually make the call out on time?

The woman trapped in JH with a broken ankle and a deep cut recently was certainly glad when cave rescue turned up when they were supposed to rather than waiting any longer.

Its a no brainer really. If you set a call out time, aim to be out before it or on time. If you know your not going to be out on time, give a later call out. The person sat at home looking at their watch is not going to know that you have suddenly found a new passage with tonnes of interesting things in.

OK I will put that in plainer English!

Let us say I aim to be out at 14:30. That is the time I expect to be in contact with the outside world (not home!). If it gets to 15:30, then please come looking/call out rescue services as appropriate.

I did not mean after 60 (or 90 which ever was agreed before hand) minutes then wait another 60 (or 90) minutes before doing anything!

I normally do aim to be out prior to the first time given.

"Stooped" systems is familiar territory! :blink:

I don't think anyone would criticise the suggestion. Rescue Services far prefer clear unambiguous instructions to woolly indeterminate arrangements.

The woman trapped in JH would have been rescued a hell of a lot earlier if she'd given a sensible call-out time, instead of one ten hours after her entry into the system. She broke her leg 30 minutes into the trip, and so was sat there for nine and a half hours before anyone even thought to check, and two cavers rather unselfishly volunteered to go find her and call out the rescue when they found her car and ropes still in-situ, as it were. They thought they would be finding a corpse.

What's worse, this was the latest of several solo trips into JH and Rowter, to prove some sort of point. Being relatively inexperienced at SRT and not very capable at free-climbing, this was pretty much a lethal combo on her own, and she was told as such many times by folks vastly more experienced (and caring) than she.

The rescue, which ended around 9am the next day, kept many people up all night, was a hassle for the farm and (paying) campers, and also ruined our exploration trip, which we'd been planning for weeks, and which was due to start at - you guessed it - 9am. We had more tact, and stayed away to avoid upsetting the farm any more than they were already.

But this entire incident was totally avoidable and completely unnecessary, and was simply the logical conclusion of all our warnings and pleadings not to keep doing this. No one to blame but herself. And thankfully there were plenty of considerate people around to help - this time.

Do you know how she happened to break her leg? Apart from that short slightly squeezey drop on the run up to bitch pitch I can't immediately think of anywhere you could fall over never mind fall off anything.

DCRO account on their website says:

At 22.30 on Saturday evening DCRO were called out to search for an overdue solo caver who had descended at about 11.00 to go to the bottom of Leviathan and back. On the way in she had taken a wrong turn in the Cartgate close to Bitch Pitch and had then fallen about eight metres into workings underneath the correct route. She suffered an injured foot and was unable to climb back out. Team members made contact with her at about 23.30 but due to the unstable nature of the passage they were unable without reinforcements and further equipment to reach her. She was safely hauled out of the hole about three hours later and after medical attention and packaging in a stretcher she was evacuated along the Cartgate and hauled up the entrance shaft to the surface where she arrived about 06.45 on Sunday morning. It then took until 09.30 to recover all team members and equipment out of the system.

Thanks Peter. :flowers:

I can't help but imagine that getting bounced through the length of the cartgate on a rescue stretcher was probably more uncomfortable than the broken leg!

She mistook the lower route after the second traverse at the 7th choke (just before the small wall) for the correct way on, instead of the upper route, and fell down the hole immediately afterwards, as far as I know. Maybe the second hole, but I think it was the first. She was several metres down, and couldn't climb out, obviously, and the two cavers who found her couldn't safely climb down either.

All ridiculous - all it needs is a banjo music soundtrack to complete the scenario. It was a source of worry for many of us nearby who like JH that this was happening, and the farm weren't too happy about her soloing either, but it's a very awkward position for them, as they have to assume that everyone who visits is competent.

I dropped the shaft once to pick up some equipment and found her at the bottom about to set off for Bitch Pitch, which she did, and then came back again safely, so she'd done the route before. But I wouldn't venture any further than the shaft bottom on my own personally - not that I can't do it, but there's so many things that can go wrong in there through no fault of your own, that it's just not worth the risk. Evidently she thought otherwise.

No problem RJV - I have taken an interest in this incident because the casualty was removed from my club's membership earlier this year, precisely for the kind of concerns expressed by pwhole. It may seem like we have strayed off topic a tad, but the bottom line is that rescue arrangements are only worth having if they are thought through properly.

...and the reason she was refused membership from ours, after the longest probationary period in its history, apparently. It was a tough call, as we all got on with her fine personally, and we didn't want to make her feel excluded, but in the end it was too risky for us as a club. I don't want to go any further, as it's not fair, and I don't have any other beef apart from this situation, but it does make clear the need for an adequate plan, especially when soloing.

What does make me happy is that I know the people I cave with care about my welfare - they would have done the same for me in that situation, as I would them. But I wouldn't have given a ten-hour trip time for anywhere around there, especially on my own. Though I wouldn't do that trip on my own.

Yes I think I know who you mean...... ::) I've not been particularly active lately so hadn't heard.

9 1/2 hours is a long time to be alone underground and injured. I'm glad the rescue was successful and she was not significantly harmed. Perhaps she will be a little more circumspect in future?

I am quite fond of a solo trip myself but only into relatively easy to negotiate places. Still I suppose one only needs to stumble awkwardly at the very start of a trip to have a wait of several hours perhaps.

It may seem like we have strayed off topic a tad

Seeing as we're on page 3 of this thread I think "internet forum, rule 37" applies!

:offtopic:

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I know we've moved on from the original point of the thread, but having just donated, I thought it best to provide some proof.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j36/Bigjobs69/Donation_zps4248d965.jpg 

Excellent. I am sure it will be appreciated.

Chris.