Sorry for the delay in posting this, I've not had a moment to myself for the past few days 😢

Here is the statement from Gethin following last Wednesday's meeting:

Thanks to all that came along to the meeting on Wednesday, it was certainly fantastic to see such broad range represented in around 50-60 attendees and equally impressive that people managed to stay with us for 3 hours (some even manage a pint afterwards!)

I felt the meeting was very successful, hopefully providing all those that attended the opportunity to hear how the group came about, and our hopes for access to the mines within the forestry.

I would add that at this point there is still no liberal access to the mines with the Gwydyr forest however I believe we now have a good and representative group assembled to further this hope. A meeting with the local forestry agent and their representatives is being arranged.

During the meeting the assembled were given an opportunity to express both their support and concerns for the proposed access group.

Following this discussion the constitution was worked through and amended, a job that needed doing, not only to promote transparently and ownership to those assembled, but also as between first publishing the constitution events had moved on to render it somewhat outdated.

Work is continuing to re-draft the constitution, which we will make available, together with the minutes of the meeting as soon as possible. However in the mean time I’ll try and summaries some of the key points.

It was agreed that the group should be assembled and continue discussions with the FC. It was also proposed that should the FC agree that the agreement negotiated following some excellent work by the Cambrian Caving Council be self sustainable and sufficient then the group would be disbanded.

The group has been re-named to the Gwydyr Mines Access and Conservation Group to better reflect the geographical boundaries of groups initial interests, although the group may also seek to negotiate access to other mines should there be an issue with accessing them on a case by case basis. It is envisaged that these would only be mines that fall within the LCMLA scheme within Snowdonia. Mines outside the Gwydyr adopted by the group would be listed individually.

Membership to the group will be open to anyone who would like to apply. All members would be provided access to all mines within the groups management within the limitations set on the group by either the FC, environmental considerations, or qualification (with regards to professional groups only).

Membership options would be:

• Individual (appropriate for individual explorers with appropriate insurance),
• Club (appropriate for clubs affiliated to the CCC/BCA who may be represented by a single representative per club at meetings),
• Professional (appropriate to Professional bodies rather than individuals who again may be represented by a single representative per organisation at a meeting) or
• Joint (who would have the same privileges as an individual member, and would be appropriate for either a club & professional member or individual & professional member)

7 committee members where appointed by those who attended. The committee represents both recreational and professional mine explores. The committee as it stands is:

• Chair: Gethin Thomas (Oaklands OEC)
• Secretary: Miles Moulding (Mine-Explorer & Go Below)
• Treasurer: Dena Proctor (North Wales co-ordinator of the LCMLA scheme)
• Conservation Officer (a new post proposed in the amendments to the constitution): Tom Marshall (Recreational mine explorer and aspirant LCMLA instructor)
• Ordinary member: Ed Jones (Rhos y Gwaliau OEC)
• Ordinary member: Mark Richards (Blue Peris OEC)
• Ordinary member: Simon Lowe (Adit Now)

It was agreed that alterations to the constitution could be made by a two-thirds vote of a quorate AGM or EGM.

Emphasis was made that it is the groups intentions to open access to the mines within the Gwydyr forest not to restrict it. We will try and do this in as unrestrictive and simple way possible, relaying on explorers to exercise due care and consideration as well as follow the CCC, NAMHO guidelines for good practice and any specific code of practice for a particular mine. It is certainly not the intention of the group to gate or physically restrict access to any mine, unless there is a specific reasons enforced upon us to do so. If there is no alternative than gating a mine then the reasons for this will be fully publicised.

Fees where discussed. To date the group has been funded by the initial founders, although it is appreciated that there may be, at some point in the future, the need to seek funding. Appropriate grants may be sought, however it may become necessary to seek funding through the membership. I would suggest that this be proportional to usage, for example I would expect individual member contributions to be less than a professional or club. It is certainly not the groups intention to seek any funding other than the minimum necessary to sustain the group.

We will keep you informed of any developments.

Gethin Thomas
Chair GMACG
2nd March 2012

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Some of my observations on the meeting...

We were given a synopsis of the situation to date; effectively going back 10 years or more, and of the formation of SMACG around a year ago.

It is understood the group is going to go ahead, and this is at the request of the FC. It's also reasonable to understand that originally it's main concern was the professional/commercial sector; however the founding members are demonstrably keen to support the hobby side as well.

It was agreed by vote that the name would be changed to Gwydir Mines Access & Conservation Group and it would be made clear that it's remit and area of interest was limited to those mines on FC land within the Gwydir Forest (as well as Rhiwbach). It is expected that the mines in question will be listed for clarity. There was mention of 'other mines' but I understand these will be limited to those under the LCMLA and will be individually listed.

The areas of concern in the constitution were addressed in turn, and I believe all issues were resolved. The group will in time publish the revised constitution for all to see.

Gethin was keen to re-inforce that the group would be sensible and considerate in its approach; if a mine isn't already gated or grilled it will not seek to gate or grill them unless insisted upon by the statutory body.

Several new committe members were appointed. These included a conservation officer, and somebody to 'represent' the hobby side. Which ended up being me, proposed by Dave Linton and seconded by Miles. Nobody else on the hobby side put themselves forward.

The bottom line is that for the hobby explorer / mining historian / conservationist is that this means legitimate access to mines on FC land within the Gwydir Forest. Which is something we have never had before.

It's not commonly known, but due to byelaws accessing mines on FC land without permission is a criminal rather than a civil offence.

The next issues to resolve - from our non-professional perspective - will be the access process and making sure any procedures are as simple as possible.

There is also the possibility of removal of restrictions on recreational access by the FC due to on-going discussion between the Cambrian Caving Council (CCC) and the FC. Should this happen then GMACG ceases to be relevant from our point of view and exploration of FC mines will be legitimised simply by demonstrating due care and carrying insurance.

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The group has been re-named to the Gwydyr Mines Access and Conservation Group to better reflect the geographical boundaries of groups initial interests, although the group may also seek to negotiate access to other mines should there be an issue with accessing them on a case by case basis. It is envisaged that these would only be mines that fall within the LCMLA scheme within Snowdonia. Mines outside the Gwydyr adopted by the group would be listed individually.

Sorry, I need to be typically "me" here. I don't recall this being specifically discussed. I specifically asked if the constitution be be amended to FC mines within the Gwydyr forest and, ultimately, Gethin proposed (and it was voted and accepted) that it would be limited to "mines within the Gwydyr forest". (Not quite the same thing but I thought it a reasonable compromise especially as one of the owners of Pandora mine was present and had openly given his permission to use his land in any event).

I do recall Rhiw Bach being discussed and included and it being agreed as being included.

I am happy to wait for the minutes to be published for clarification.

If it was agreed as above and I missed that little "gem" then I shall be frustrated with myself 😞

Ian

.... PS, thanks for publishing Simon 🙂

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I too am a little concerned about the wording of that paragraph in both Gethin's statement and Simon's summary.

I am pleased paragraph 12 has been altered to some extent, but still do not see the need for a two thirds majority rather than a simple majority. It would only take a couple of OECs to "gang together" and any alteration would then be impossible, no matter how widely individuals felt otherwise.

The group has been re-named to the Gwydyr Mines Access and Conservation Group to better reflect the geographical boundaries of groups initial interests, although the group may also seek to negotiate access to other mines should there be an issue with accessing them on a case by case basis. It is envisaged that these would only be mines that fall within the LCMLA scheme within Snowdonia. Mines outside the Gwydyr adopted by the group would be listed individually.

Sorry, I need to be typically "me" here. I don't recall this being specifically discussed. I specifically asked if the constitution be be amended to FC mines within the Gwydyr forest and, ultimately, Gethin proposed (and it was voted and accepted) that it would be limited to "mines within the Gwydyr forest". (Not quite the same thing but I thought it a reasonable compromise especially as one of the owners of Pandora mine was present and had openly given his permission to use his land in any event).

I do recall Rhiw Bach being discussed and included and it being agreed as being included.

I am happy to wait for the minutes to be published for clarification.

If it was agreed as above and I missed that little "gem" then I shall be frustrated with myself 😞

Ian

.... PS, thanks for publishing Simon :)

Ian you are correct as I made the proposal just Gwydyr Forest there is a bit of liberal interpretation here to satisfy the professionals I suspect - it is now a week how long does it take to produce minutes even fromm a 3 hour meeting?

Mike

it is now a week how long does it take to produce minutes even fromm a 3 hour meeting?

Remember it's Miles producing the minutes Mike, it could take some time....

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send him a PM.....oh hang on!

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I note that not even the statement by Gethin has appeared on ME!

To be fair ....not much has appeared of late :lol:

To be fair ....not much has appeared of late :lol:

That's true now you come to mention it! :lol: :lol:

Sorry for the delay in replying :(

I've queried this with Gethin. I think it needs tightening up as there's a difference between there being no professional access; and no access.

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Did he give any idea when the redrafted constitution will be available?

I won't even bother asking about the minutes! 😞

Simon, Ian, John

I have sent you PM's

Mike

Received, thank you.

As per my reply to you; it is very important that you obtain the authors consent to post a copy of both the relevant emails.

Regards,

Ian

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Simon, Ian, John

I have sent you PM's

Mike

Mike, I didn't get a PM, could you send it again please?

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Personal-Album-1/Snowdonia-Mines-Access-and-Conservation-Group-minutes-v2.pdf 

I believe they cover all the points raised at the meeting; and clarify the group's remit.

Any concerns, issues, questions etc. please feel free to post here or PM me and I'll raise them.

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At the meeting I raised a number of queries/challenges, none of which made it into the minutes. I guess that is fair enough as the minutes have been limited to the motions.

However, one issue I did raise was "What criteria needed to be met in order for an explorer to be allowed access into a FC mine". It was answered that the person would need to be a member of the CCC (or a member of a club/group that was within the CCC) and that they would have to have BCA insurance.

I pointed out that the majority of people in the room represented clubs/groups that already met that criteria and that we already had unfettered access (my words exactly). I was advised there and then that the nominated group for access control was the group now being formed and that all access would be through same. I was also advised that if we, as individuals (or clubs) wanted to negotiate our own access with the FC then we could do so but the point of "this" access group was so we didn't have to.

I have possession of the minutes of a recent BCA meeting (public domain material) which appear to indicate that the recreational caver DOES have unfettered access without having to be a member of the access group. I have asked for clarification and am waiting for same.

The following excert is taken from the Officers reports at the last BCA Council meeting last Saturday (24th March 2012)

"Forestry Commission: Negotiations with the Forestry to obtain access to mines and caves within the forestry land (over and above the Forest of Dean) in England have stalled because of the pressures of the reformations in the nature of the EA/FC/EN new body.

However, in Wales it is about to be finalised in a manner that will permit access to recreational explorers more or less unfettered, and to OPC’s (Outdoor Pursuit Centres ?) in an appropriate manner, under the banner of CCC.

Maybe we will be able to expand to the rest of the British Isles as necessary."


If this is as it seems, then it would appear that it is the OEC's (or OPC's) that need the group and that there would be no requirement for any recreational caver or club or other group to be a member of the access group.

I will, of course, update when I receive clarification.

Ian

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I will wait with interest to hear the result of that IanA.

Was the meeting given the option to make it a simple majority to alter the constitution or only 2/3rds majority? The minutes do not make that clear. I am glad the committe veto at least was agreed.

Hopefully when there is another meeting I would hope to make it. Maybe a bit more notice would be helpful. Although in the case of the last date even with longer notice I could not have made it.

I have now received clarification from the Cambrian Caving Council with regards to access to mines and caves on Forestry Commission land which are;

Elsie Little has negotiated and agreed a pan-Wales access arrangement with the Forestry Commission (FC) wherein they have granted permission for any recreational explorer to enter any of their mines/caves provided they are a BCA Card holder.

Part of the basis of the agreement has been on the premise that; provided the landowner consents to access (in this case the FC) then the BCA insurance indemnifies the landowner. The FC have accepted this and it has been a key factor in agreeing access.

The agreement is currently being engrossed but is already De Facto.

With regards to OPCs (Outdoor Pursuit Centres) Elsie has advised that there is a different route and that discussions are still on-going.

Therefore, as matters stand at this moment in time, any recreational explorer with a BCA card has permission to enter a FC mine/cave in Wales.

This is obviously excellent news for most of us and I hope that the Access group’s endeavours to secure access for the commercial sector is successful which would bring about a win/win scenario for everyone.

Good news for everyone 🙂

Ian

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So that is as clear as it sounds then, and it's official?.....no need to join, or consult with, an access group in order to gain access???! :lol:

Great news :thumbsup:

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