Looking at the current state of play in north Wales with different clubs/associations/interests claiming their own spheres of influence , a situation where there is no 'management' of mines or caves seems fanciful.

Why exactly?

Sorry Simon, I was sure I read that you were representing the hobbyist explorer, maybe on ME or maybe I'm just totally mistaken or some else is.

Don't worry about it! As I said I'm on the email distribution list but that's all. I said I wanted to see the hobbyist explorer represented 😉

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I really am surprised you weren't invited earlier. That in itself seems odd/worrying.

I really am surprised you weren't invited earlier. That in itself seems odd/worrying.

I wouldn't worry about that either John:

SMACG was set up initially to take on the access management of Rhiwbach Mine on behalf of the Forestry Commission, historically negotiated and managed by both representatives of the local Outdoor Education Centres and Forestry Commission

I understand it has its roots in Rhiwbach and the historical situation with the FC. And as I'm not an OEC or an adventure activity provider, and as Rhiwbach was always a case of simply make contact and give BCA number to gain access it wasn't really terribly relevant to me, nor do I expect to be involved in anything, or take offence at not being.

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'Why exactly?'

(human) nature abhors a vacuum.

I don't really see the point of that comment. Some humans don't like unneccessary controls either!

I agree, unnecessary control should be avoided. But when presented with a model where an agreed level of control can deliver tangible benefits we shouldn't let past experience or cave tribalism deter us from it.

I hope the spirit of openness that has been evidenced with the publication online of this draft constitution and invitation to the meeting can be supported by demonstration that the level of control proposed is appropriate and good value.

Which surely is the problem Chris!

I'm confused what problem - the whole point of getting organised it allows access without hassle especialy if done under the umbrella of BCA / NAMHO - unlike say Church Mine and recent debate over that?

Mike

Which surely is the problem Chris!

I'm confused what problem - the whole point of getting organised it allows access without hassle especialy if done under the umbrella of BCA / NAMHO - unlike say Church Mine and recent debate over that?

Mike

Did I miss that debate?

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I do think this - online - debate has run it's course now.

SMACG have been (as a few people have pointed out) open insofar as they've posted their draft constitution online, and pointed all relevant clubs, groups and bodies at it.

I suspect the core members' interests are more relevant to professional/commercial concerns; but I also know they're explorers as well.

A number of people have voiced concerns, and these may, or may be resolved through debate and amendment to the constitution.

The next stage will be those with concerns to attend the meeting - or if they can't to submit their concerns in writing or by email (PM them to me if you wish - I shall be attending the meeting) - and for a full debate to follow.

Hopefully that will lead to an outcome that represents both the founding professional/commercial members and us hobby explorers as well as consider conservation issues.

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Sorry Simon, I was sure I read that you were representing the hobbyist explorer, maybe on ME or maybe I'm just totally mistaken or some else is.

Possibly because this was posted on ME:

"Other key players locally are Dave Linton (of WMS and WMPT) and Dena Proctor (technical advisor to many of the local OEC's). Simon Lowe of Adit Now is also on the committee to pursue the interests of casual explorers and the forums."

Has somebody jumped the gun on Simon's behalf?

I didn't realise I was...

I said I was interested in the group, from the point of view of being a hobby explorer.

I had an email on the 23/12 to say I had been included on the email discussion list. But as far as I was aware that was it. I've not been to any meetings, and I've not had any input in anything at all to date.

As far as I was aware I was attending the meeting on Wednesday as somebody with an interest; not a committee member.

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Which surely is the problem Chris!

I'm confused what problem - the whole point of getting organised it allows access without hassle especialy if done under the umbrella of BCA / NAMHO - unlike say Church Mine and recent debate over that?

Mike

Church and the other Slipton mines enjoyed 'unofficial' access since the year dot until it was plastered all over the Internet. Then the landowners, the Drayton Estate, announced intention to grill all of the entrances, which they have now done.
This was regardless of an extensive package of proposals relating to the BCA insurance scheme being put before them. They could have enjoyed indemnity against claims up to £250,000, or for £50 a year, less than the cost of one of their damned grills, could have joined BCA as an 'Access Controlling Body' and had the full cover which is going up to £5M I believe.

Basically, in not so many words, we were told to **** off.

Its not difficult to see why some may have concerns once the pot gets stirred

Of course, this could be a completely different situation.

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Which is the reason why I did not name mines that could be adversely affected by this proposal if someone (in years to come) decided to apply the full wording of what mines are covered by this group.

Which surely is the problem Chris!

I'm confused what problem - the whole point of getting organised it allows access without hassle especialy if done under the umbrella of BCA / NAMHO - unlike say Church Mine and recent debate over that?

Mike

Church and the other Slipton mines enjoyed 'unofficial' access since the year dot until it was plastered all over the Internet. Then the landowners, the Drayton Estate, announced intention to grill all of the entrances, which they have now done.
This was regardless of an extensive package of proposals relating to the BCA insurance scheme being put before them. They could have enjoyed indemnity against claims up to £250,000, or for £50 a year, less than the cost of one of their damned grills, could have joined BCA as an 'Access Controlling Body' and had the full cover which is going up to £5M I believe.

Basically, in not so many words, we were told to **** off.

Its not difficult to see why some may have concerns once the pot gets stirred

Of course, this could be a completely different situation.

Roy - the offer of access arrangements was rather after the horse had bolted and the estate took the decision as a result of. Had a group or someone negotiated access several years ago the response may have been different. There reaction was kneejerk in response to. Unfortunately not all explorers seem to have the same positive attitudes generaly enjoyed n this site.

As for Gwydyr - I was on the NAMHOcommittee some 20+ years ago when Rob Vernon was trying to negotiate access for Clubs and was constantly knocked back. I can only see this as a positive step as long as there are proper access arrangements for bona fida explorers and if BCA insurance is a pre requisite then fine most of us have that through clubs or AN anyway.

I personaly feel the best arrangements would be to ensure that the grup is made up off explorers and proffesionals. The best way to ensure that is to attend the meeting.

it is my intention to do so -

PS if anyone wants any books post free and cash discount let me know before 12.00 I can bring them with me

Sorry, I cannot do a 90 mile drive on a weekday evening.

My general feeling is to trust those involved, several of whom I know personally. I just hope that the Forestry can be trusted, and that the good souls involved dont just get 'used'.

As has been commented, I have informal access arrangements in place in central Wales at several sites, however this has involved dealing with farmers rather than official bodies or substantive private estates.

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So, come on guys- what happened? What was the general consensus of the meeting?

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Was an agreement reached? If so, how much was the proposed constitution amended?

Will get something posted up as soon as I can John. Haven't had a moment to myself today. Good turnout, generally very positive and most issues resolved.

Will get something more detailed written as soon as I get the chance!

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Thread bumped as it has got pushed right down the list!