I have access to have a wonder around underground therefore I am happy and have no problems regarding.
It would be good to have the back vein incline working again, but with a small winch lifting one wagon.
Would be an idea to produce some slate producs using blocks of slate that are lying about to raise some money. Coasters, paper weights, table lamps etc. :)

there is enough slabs on the floor in the chamber next to the bvi to make a lot of money for the cwm fund 😉

Ho.
I have been following this. FOC must be the only group, I wont use the word "club", that has no politics in the whole of bloody north Wales.

In the words of a Gentleman:
Bravo Sirs!

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I have access to have a wonder around underground therefore I am happy and have no problems regarding.
It would be good to have the back vein incline working again, but with a small winch lifting one wagon.
Would be an idea to produce some slate producs using blocks of slate that are lying about to raise some money. Coasters, paper weights, table lamps etc. :)

What kind of license would you need to extract then? Even loose stuff must need some sort of license ('cmon, it's a license to print money for the government, there will be one needed).

That said, I've always fancied a go at Slate Splitting.

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Ho.
I have been following this. FOC must be the only group, I wont use the word "club", that has no politics in the whole of bloody north Wales.

Aye, I'm sure it is ::)

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I have access to have a wonder around underground therefore I am happy and have no problems regarding.
It would be good to have the back vein incline working again, but with a small winch lifting one wagon.
Would be an idea to produce some slate producs using blocks of slate that are lying about to raise some money. Coasters, paper weights, table lamps etc. :)

What kind of license would you need to extract then? Even loose stuff must need some sort of license ('cmon, it's a license to print money for the government, there will be one needed).

That said, I've always fancied a go at Slate Splitting.

If rocks were recovered from underground, wouldn't it then become a "working mine" with all the complications that would involve?

It didn't take long for people to start running away with their ideas that they would like to do. Just like was happening a little while ago when the landowner put a stop to things. Foc should be there to provide the access and safety of the mine full stop. Any other 'ventures' should be negotiated separately under another group.
Setting up a winch on an incline has nothing to do with Foc, neither has removing slate. Breaking in and taking over the 'hut' had nothing to do with Foc and if DP members wanted it, then it was up to them to aquire it under their name etc. A collection was made to buy a generator for 'repairs' to the entrance area and all I heard was that it would be used to power the winch and provide power for the 'hut'. Neither have f-all to do with the Foc in my eyes.
The place was heading to be a playground for certain people and it sounds like some still wants that to happen.

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I believe the manager's house is currently leased by FoC?

Similarly, I believe that the generator has now been sold and the funds put into the FoC 'pot'.

I'm sure someone more qualified than I can confirm this.


I would agree entirely that FoC's remit is to ensure that free access continues (through an access agreement) and that the fabric of the mine is kept in a condition that enables this - for example, reinforcing the adit; clearing the Floor 2 (south) adit; and various other works such as clearing falls and stabilising other parts.

Beyond that is a very grey area, which may be a discussion for the future rather than now.

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It didn't take long for people to start running away with their ideas that they would like to do. Just like was happening a little while ago when the landowner put a stop to things. Foc should be there to provide the access and safety of the mine full stop. Any other 'ventures' should be negotiated separately under another group.
Setting up a winch on an incline has nothing to do with Foc, neither has removing slate. Breaking in and taking over the 'hut' had nothing to do with Foc and if DP members wanted it, then it was up to them to aquire it under their name etc. A collection was made to buy a generator for 'repairs' to the entrance area and all I heard was that it would be used to power the winch and provide power for the 'hut'. Neither have f-all to do with the Foc in my eyes.
The place was heading to be a playground for certain people and it sounds like some still wants that to happen.

No plans to install a winch anywhere (Some have speculated that it might be fun but nothing beyond that. Certainly nothing has ever been done about such a project and there is no winch)

No plans to extract slate at all, some waste slate was cut up to replace treads on the staircase. Nothing else that I am aware of.

The hut is rented from its owners, all legit and above board. Nobody broke in, it was open to the elements with missing shutters on one of the windows.

The generator issue is entirely seperate from FoC and I know very little about the matter. I believe Vanoord is correct however.

I fully agree with you, FoC's primary purpose is to preserve access. That includes the adits and gates.

I'd always hoped that the generator was to be used to stabilse the lake level addit (along with steel obtained from elsewhere), let's face it with a few tons above the addit those tree trunks are not going to last for ever. And to provide electrical lighting to work areas during "working bee weekends" and as a bit of FUN run an incline somewhere. - or am I just too optomistic?

Talk of merchandise - well now that's a differnent ball game requireing more discussion - one that does not need to happen now!

let's concentrate on what we have now and move into the future, securing what we have in sweat and steel - that way the bloody tip won't seal us in!

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actually, I don't really care what the politics are, as long as I don't have to get involved in them... I've never known a group of any sort with none, least of all a group with funds of any sort.

Does the aforegoing mean there is only one access? If so, stabilising an alternative access must be first priority..

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Two accessible adits, one of which is a bit tight inside and could do with clearing - with there being commercial 'adventure' tours in there next year, it may be advisable to clear the backup adit over the winter to provide an easier egress.

Originally there were two adits on most levels above ground, one per vein. Lake Level (1) and Floor 4 only have one adit each; and higher up (6+ ish) there was only one adit per level. So, perhaps 14 adits although only perhaps half gave access to the main workings with the others leading to smaller areas.

Untopping and tipping have lost all but two of the adits that lead to the main workings and there are four more which partially exist are are tipped over or collapsed.

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I think the real point of the matter has now been aired. "Commercial adventure tours" - presumably along the lines of the ones at Corris? Is this what the accusations of "politics" and "hidden agendas" are about?


Do I care about this? I do not. There were, at one time, various tour parties of this sort operating in the Yorkshire Dales, and they made no effective difference to the caving scene. There simply wasn't enough money involved. A coupke of landowners made themselves difficult over it, but they were the ones who were making themselves difficult anyway ( in a caving sense, they were after all fully entitled to do so ).

If someone, or some small group, is prepared to go to the trouble of maintaining access in return for the level of reward likely to accrue from such an activity, good luck to 'em sez I

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I think the real point of the matter has now been aired. "Commercial adventure tours" - presumably along the lines of the ones at Corris? Is this what the accusations of "politics" and "hidden agendas" are about?


Do I care about this? I do not. There were, at one time, various tour parties of this sort operating in the Yorkshire Dales, and they made no effective difference to the caving scene. There simply wasn't enough money involved. A coupke of landowners made themselves difficult over it, but they were the ones who were making themselves difficult anyway ( in a caving sense, they were after all fully entitled to do so ).

If someone, or some small group, is prepared to go to the trouble of maintaining access in return for the level of reward likely to accrue from such an activity, good luck to 'em sez I

One major difference between Corris and Cwmorthin, any commercial activity will take place alongside the normal independent visitors.
Nobody will be locked out in favour of paying tourists. The tourist trips will be paying for the guide etc, not access to Cwmorthin.

It would appear at the moment you are right, the commercial activity is the source of disgruntlement. However, six months ago it was a different problem behind the digruntlement and in six months time it'll be a new reason altogether.

The only thing that will remain constant is that even those doing their best wind up a frenzy about something will still be able to freely access Cwmorthin.....

I'd always hoped that the generator was to be used to stabilse the lake level addit (along with steel obtained from elsewhere), let's face it with a few tons above the addit those tree trunks are not going to last for ever. And to provide electrical lighting to work areas during "working bee weekends" and as a bit of FUN run an incline somewhere. - or am I just too optomistic?

Talk of merchandise - well now that's a differnent ball game requireing more discussion - one that does not need to happen now!

let's concentrate on what we have now and move into the future, securing what we have in sweat and steel - that way the bloody tip won't seal us in!

In my view (and it is only opinion) the generator idea was wildly optomistic.
Not least the idea of getting 3 tons of tractor engined genset upto Cwmorthin, finding somewhere secure to site it and prevent climate and vandal damage.
Yes being able to run welding gear in Lake Level and a fair whack of electric lighting would have been good but it was always going to be difficult.
Thats just my personal opinion however.

As to merchandising, there are no plans to do anything along those lines.

I think the real point of the matter has now been aired. "Commercial adventure tours" - presumably along the lines of the ones at Corris? Is this what the accusations of "politics" and "hidden agendas" are about?

Corris Mine Explorers is a different sort of animal, operating under different conditions, with a different ethos. Not really possible to compare the two, other than superficially.

Corris Mine Explorers is an offshoot of an established underground tourist attraction (King Arthur's Labyrinth) and its creation did seal off access to parts of Braich Goch to the casual visitor, although KingArthur (who runs CME) does allow mine explorers in from time to time and has taken groups from AN on trips round some of the more interesting parts of the workings.

Yes, some access has been lost, but given the massive investment that CME have made, it's understandable. There have been all sorts of requirements made by the various licensing bodies as regards (re)building stairways, securing ceilings and so on, which has required significant expenditure.

I don't entirely understand the relationship between the forthcoming commercial operation in Cwmorthin and FoC, so it's difficult to expand the comparison.

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I don't entirely understand the relationship between the forthcoming commercial operation in Cwmorthin and FoC, so it's difficult to expand the comparison.

The commercial side has bought the lease. The lease contains a clause which enables access control to be transfered directly to FoC.
FoC does not have the financial means to buy the lease.
The adventure tours are completely seperate from FoC and both can happily co-exist without issue.
The adventure tours will endeavour to recoup its costs by means of paying tourists.
Its a means to an end and realistically the best option to fund the lease

The generator issue is entirely seperate from FoC and I know very little about the matter. I believe Vanoord is correct however.

.

I thought the generator was purchased under the "umbrella" of the FoC? That was certainly the impression given at the time when donations for it's purchase were asked for.

Given the assertion about non-political nature of the FOC, it's interesting that some of the reservations discussed here are absent in the thread of the other site.

The generator issue is entirely seperate from FoC and I know very little about the matter. I believe Vanoord is correct however.

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I thought the generator was purchased under the "umbrella" of the FoC? That was certainly the impression given at the time when donations for it's purchase were asked for.

To my knowledge, it was not directly FoC because it did not fit with the FoC ethos and was not considered required for the preservation of access? I'm sure someone can / will correct me if I'm wrong though :bored:

The commercial side has bought the lease. The lease contains a clause which enables access control to be transfered directly to FoC.
FoC does not have the financial means to buy the lease.
The adventure tours are completely seperate from FoC and both can happily co-exist without issue.
The adventure tours will endeavour to recoup its costs by means of paying tourists.
Its a means to an end and realistically the best option to fund the lease

Cheers for that explanation.

I would agree that there is no way that the lease could be afforded by FoC and indeed I'd object to any organisation like FoC setting the precedent to pay a landowner that sort of sum to allow recreational access, something that has traditionally been entirely free.

I'm sure with the sort of prices that people are willing to pay for trips underground, up a tree or on a boat, that hopefully it won't take too long to recover the costs of the lease.

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I don't entirely understand the relationship between the forthcoming commercial operation in Cwmorthin and FoC, so it's difficult to expand the comparison.

The commercial side has bought the lease. The lease contains a clause which enables access control to be transfered directly to FoC.
FoC does not have the financial means to buy the lease.
The adventure tours are completely seperate from FoC and both can happily co-exist without issue.
The adventure tours will endeavour to recoup its costs by means of paying tourists.
Its a means to an end and realistically the best option to fund the lease

so... there is a relationship between the Braich Goch operation and FoC? If I read this correctly, there is a speculative venture involving an existing attraction attempting to expand its operations to a new site, and in doing so, soliciting donations and/or volunteer labour in the manner of, say, a preserved railway?

I really wouldn't have a problem with this provided it were done openly. I could hardly object to someone seeking to make money from a mine, albeit an unproductive one. As has been said, I can't really see any other way which a lease could be funded.

It also makes sense of the various comments about generators, merchandise etc.

So, let's see if I have got this right... a group representing themselves as an informal operation, are carrying out work funded to a significant degree by a commercial operation. Various individuals have done work voluntarily, or made donations, in the expectation that access would be thereby secured.

The outcome is that access has indeed been preserved, the conditions made by the landowner are being met and the access adits are being refurbished to some degree.

It would rather appear that certain individuals may not approve of some part or other of this, for reasons which do not appear to be fully disclosed by those parties.

It all sounds very Welsh. I've long ago given up taking any interest in the local politics of such matters. The FR have not endeared themselves to some people at some times, but they have a working formula and generate considerable revenue, local business and some full-time local employment.
Sounds like FoC/AL/whoever-they-might-be are setting off along the same path, and if so, good luck to 'em sez I.

Provided the ( probably fairly limited ) number of people who want free access can get it, and the logic of the situation suggests that any attempt to gate it for commercial access might end in tears and recrimination, and those who are monded to donate funds and/or their time have a clear idea of the nature of the project they are involving themselves in, then I really don't see the problem.

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