It has to be borne on mind that Cwmorthin was and remains, a mine and not a cave. If the landowner wishes to lease it for exploratory drilling, he would be quite justified in doing so; it was originally excavated for that reason, after all. It might be quite reasonably claimed that exploration and possible production was its proper function.

I have to agree with Derrickman on this (that must be a first!!! 😉 ). It would seem that FoC have unwittingly prevented a mine reopening for it's original purpose. I am sure this will not please the locals one bit! I can hear the cries now "Englishmen playing miners stop new jobs being created in Blaenau".

It has to be borne on mind that Cwmorthin was and remains, a mine and not a cave. If the landowner wishes to lease it for exploratory drilling, he would be quite justified in doing so; it was originally excavated for that reason, after all. It might be quite reasonably claimed that exploration and possible production was its proper function.

I have to agree with Derrickman on this (that must be a first!!! 😉 ). It would seem that FoC have unwittingly prevented a mine reopening for it's original purpose. I am sure this will not please the locals one bit! I can hear the cries now "Englishmen playing miners stop new jobs being created in Blaenau".

That wouldn't be a new experience ::) the same thing is mentioned in "Little Wonder" regarding the Festiniog Railway court case and the Trawsfynydd project, and look how all THAT turned out.

I was briefly involved in the Moelwyn Tunnel ( via my then-CSM connection ) and there was local dissent about the MSC policy by which local rockmen from the quarries could not be employed on it ( on the basis that they were more beneficial to the local economy at the quarries, although they earned less than the miners on the tunnel ).

plus ca change.

However I would remain of the opinion that Cwmorthin was and is a mine, not a leisure amenity, and if there was a chance of real wages and real work from untopping operations, which I take to be the meaning, then these should proceed.

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I'd be surprised if it were untopping - it would need some pretty major works to get at anything.

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Would the FoCers have really had any say in the matter were there a real intent to restart quarrying?
Seems unlikely so probably not worth too much bluster over the issue...

Unlikely I guess?

Any info on the company who was interested in drilling? Who they are, where they are from, what put them off, how likely they are to look at it again?

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Old workings attract a steady stream of speculative drilling, sampling, jockeying for position, buying rights in the hope of selling them on at a profit, all sorts of odd jobs to dispose of small sums for tax purposes and perhaps defer a profit into another tax year... an everyday story of mining folk, really.

who knows? The landowner might have been misled or attempting to mislead, it might have been suggested and abandoned, no way of knowing

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Would the FoCers have really had any say in the matter were there a real intent to restart quarrying?
Seems unlikely so probably not worth too much bluster over the issue...

Not really. My view is pretty much that if it was going to happen, it would have happened.

Old workings attract a steady stream of speculative drilling, sampling, jockeying for position, buying rights in the hope of selling them on at a profit, all sorts of odd jobs to dispose of small sums for tax purposes and perhaps defer a profit into another tax year... an everyday story of mining folk, really.

who knows? The landowner might have been misled or attempting to mislead, it might have been suggested and abandoned, no way of knowing

Who knows? But had anyone wanted to do so seriously there has been ample oppurtunity.
It hasn't happened so we can all draw our own conclusions.

There isn't any credible argument that FOC has prevented anyone working. Infact the opposite would be true given that at least some tourism income might be generated in Bleanau as a result of the current situation.

Should keep the Tanygrisiau car radio trade going anyway.

That has, I think all stopped, in the 6 years I've been visting that car park (how dodgy does that sound - you know what I mean), parking in that car park, I've seen one car with a smashed window. I know people who have had their cars broken into, but not for a long time.

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Yes, that was a bit unfair of me. I've never had a problem in Snowdonia.

Yes, that was a bit unfair of me. I've never had a problem in Snowdonia.

In fairness it did have that reputation, and a bad one at that, but i think it was a while ago that it earned it.

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I'd be surprised if it were untopping - it would need some pretty major works to get at anything.

When chatting with Robyn Williams in the early 90s I remember him saying that the lot untopping then just let off BIG bang shots and dug out anything left over with machines.
His opinion was that they wrecked the place then left.

I'd be surprised if it were untopping - it would need some pretty major works to get at anything.

When chatting with Robyn Williams in the early 90s I remember him saying that the lot untopping then just let off BIG bang shots and dug out anything left over with machines.
His opinion was that they wrecked the place then left.

Can certainly confirm that from inside -pretty much everthing above lake level is either completely shot, or gone!

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I understand that nothing much above lake level was any good after the Welsh Slate Co. left it.
Remember they caused "The Great Fall" in Oakley quarry by leaving the lower quarry too weak.
Then the moved to working Cwmorthin above the vally floor & left that in poor condition.
THEN
the modern land rover miners robbed the pillars on floor 1
Is it any wonder that it's all collapsed. :smartass:

Old workings attract a steady stream of speculative drilling, sampling, jockeying for position, buying rights in the hope of selling them on at a profit, all sorts of odd jobs to dispose of small sums for tax purposes and perhaps defer a profit into another tax year... an everyday story of mining folk, really.

who knows? The landowner might have been misled or attempting to mislead, it might have been suggested and abandoned, no way of knowing

Who knows? But had anyone wanted to do so seriously there has been ample oppurtunity.
It hasn't happened so we can all draw our own conclusions.

There isn't any credible argument that FOC has prevented anyone working. Infact the opposite would be true given that at least some tourism income might be generated in Bleanau as a result of the current situation.

I'm somewhat distant from the situation (although I did bung a few quid towards the adit stabilisation at the time) I'd imagine if there was a serious chance of commercial mining resuming the landowner would have signed up to that in preference to FOC as it would have been more lucrative?

I had my first look in there earlier this year and was impressed. On the whole I'm rather glad it appears that the opportunity to look round some more remains open :thumbup:

Amusing how the thread has diverted itself.

For some 3 years I have been asking for transparency from FoC.

I could expand but .................

...........

Amusing how the thread has diverted itself.

For some 3 years I have been asking for transparency from FoC.

I would imagine that some of the questions of transparency can be explained by the recent negotiations and the perceived requirement to keep these away from public debate.

To date there is no legal entity, just a group of four friends.

I'm not aware of whether FoC is a legal entity or not (in the strictest sense) but that may be something better left for someone else to answer.

There are no formal agendas and no minutes. And hence none published.

Presumably agendas / minutes would only follow from formal meetings, so if there were no formal meetings, then there would, by default be nothing to report.

There are no accounts published yearly.

Indeed. I believe these are available on request, although it would be helpful if these were published from time to time.

There are no audited accounts published.

Audited accounts would be a significant cost, so I can understand why any organisation would want to avoid them!

There are no members, just the original 4, although this is planned to change.

Yet very detailed descriptions of the 'negotiated' Cwmorthin / Oakeley boundary can be quoted.

I believe this will be changing, the proof being in the eating etc.

We know their stated agenda.
That is all, we know.

I doubt there's a lot more to the agenda than continued free access for all, without requiring insurance, club membership or payment.

If this offends someone - please delete this comment.

That would only add to the conspiracy theories ;)

However, we may remove some comments in due course as the thread could conceivably cause problems for access in the future as it is on an open forum and viewable by all and sundry until (re)moved.

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then again, I hear much the same thing about some Cornish mines.. one in particular....

That's just how things work. People have the opportunity to do something, no-one else is doing it so they do it. There are landowners to deal with, access to negotiate, costs involved.

Milwr generates some accusations from time to time but I dare say the club is doing the best they can in a difficult situation.

The Mendips used to be pretty notorious for that sort of thing in my active caving days, a lot of people accustomed to the largely free access of the Northern caves came once or twice, and left in disgust - I was one of them...

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I understand that nothing much above lake level was any good after the Welsh Slate Co. left it.
Remember they caused "The Great Fall" in Oakley quarry by leaving the lower quarry too weak.
Then the moved to working Cwmorthin above the vally floor & left that in poor condition.
THEN
the modern land rover miners robbed the pillars on floor 1
Is it any wonder that it's all collapsed. :smartass:

that's the extractive industries for you, the clue is in the name. You take as much as you can and try to ensure that the whole issue doesn't collapse around your ears before you leave the area.

There were some pretty horrific things at Combe Down, in that respect. Mines like Dolcoath were often systematically "knacked", which is to say that the miners worked back towards the shaft pillar leaving the workings in a state of impending collapse. It's just part of the process.

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