historytrog
14 years ago
Just wondering if the Welsh mob have noticed the recent auction of a painting by George Barrett senr entitled “Lead mining near Caernarvon” – rather a good view of some mine buildings etc.
Does anybody know which mine this is?
The catalogue with an image of this painting is still available on the Internet as a pdf download at:
www.derwent-wyefineart.co.uk/auctions/catalogues/2011_March.pdf

Auction of Paintings, Drawings, Prints and Sculptures, to be held at
Cavendish Hall, Edensor, Chatsworth Estate, Derbyshire
Saturday 26th March 2011 at 11am
Viewing Friday 25th March 11am-7pm
Saturday 26th March 9am-11pm

AR
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14 years ago
The image is on p.65 of the catalogue, BTW.
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
BertyBasset
14 years ago
Interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Barrett 

The painting presumably dates from the second half of the 18C.

Obvious things from the painting:
engine house
chimney
mountainous

Other than that ? Seems a bit early for a substantial mine with an engine house near Caernarfon ? However, I suppose back in those days, anywhere in Caernavonshire could be classed as being near Caernarfon, so maybe Gwydyr.

I suppose it could be Cyffty with Moel Siabod in the background, though I would have thought Cyffty would be later than that.

Robin
grahami
14 years ago
Amazing what prices are expected for paintings..... 😉

Not bad detail in the mining one though.

Grahami
The map is the territory - especially in chain scale.
davel
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14 years ago
Barrett died 1784 (Wikipedia), so that presumably puts a latest date on the painting.

I'm inclined to agree with Robin that the location could be Cuffty.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=beddgelert&aq=&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=17.392686,33.178711&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Beddgelert,+Caernarfon,+Gwynedd,+United+Kingdom&ll=53.021102,-4.077698&spn=0.004053,0.0081&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=53.020781,-4.07864&panoid=iIVTMj5kKs1e1UP4wORlag&cbp=12,233.42,,0,-9.77 )

However, my understanding of some of the art of that period is that artists selected elements from various places to make a 'picturesque' scene, so it might not be an specific location.

It does look more like a 19th- rather than 18th-century mine though.

Dave
AR
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14 years ago
I agree that the engine house looks more like it's got a Cornish rather than a Newcomen in it, but we have tyo ask whether he was painting from life or remembering sonmething he'd seen, and just shoving generic mine buildings in.
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
rufenig
14 years ago
The engine house which seems quite large looks like it is for a "new" Boulton & Watt engine.
The eye of faith sees a large wooden sheave for lifting the pump rods which from the scale may have been substantial.
Also a raised leat leading to a probable wheel & processing house.
The R/H building could represent a smelt house.

Watt took out his second patent in 1775 & their engines were spreading through Wales at the time the picture is dated.
Engines are reported from Minera,& Pernrhyn Du amongs others.
Don,t know about the Gwyder mines without going through the books.
So which Carnavonshire lead mine about 1780 could afford a new Boulton & Watt engine.
davel
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14 years ago
Approaching this from another direction, I think the nearest lead mines to Caernarfon were those of Dyffryn Nantlle.

Dave
royfellows
14 years ago
"davel" wrote:

Approaching this from another direction, I think the nearest lead mines to Caernarfon were those of Dyffryn Nantlle.

Dave



Yes, my thoughts exactly. Closer to Caernarfon you are into copper veins.
The whole thing could be a flight of the imagination by the artist.
I tell you what though, take a look at the paintings reproduced in Chris Williams book of Mines Of The Alyn Valley, there is definitely a strong resemblance, at least to my eye. To be honest, it hit me right away. I am not an art expert but just suppose the painter J Ingleby (the book) and this guy are one and same.
If you want to take a look, the paintings are in the National Library of Wales

This is were someone tells me I talk poo, ah well.
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Graigfawr
14 years ago
If it is problematic to assign a potential location then two potential errors should be considered:

(1) is the attribution to the artist correct? If it is unsigned [I failed to open the links so do not know] then it is far from unknown for the idetity of the artist to whom a work is attributed to be incorrect. If it turned out to be the work of a later artist then very likely the range of possibilities would increase.

(2) How firm is the title? A great many titles to smaller works are assigned by art historians and - especially - by dealers and auctioneers. These can vary considerably in accuracy but have a distinct habit of rapidly becoming set in stone.

Hopefully these observations, from hard experience of idetifying watercolours and lessser art works depicting industry (a subject seemingly specially prone to mis-idetification) scenes, are useful grist to the mill!
Phil Ford
14 years ago
Looks like Llanrwst Mine at Nant BH.
rufenig
14 years ago
Bennett & Vernon give a date of 1876 for the Llanrwst engine house.
That is 100 years after the purported artist died.
BertyBasset
14 years ago
Not lead obviously, but looking at Bick's OCMOS, I wonder if that's the Great Orme. That wooden frame thing could be bramock rods. There's a couple of pictures in the book vaguely similar (although from 1853, but the caption says the engine house was going to ruin by then)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5310/5597669188_838c064f6b_z.jpg 
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5228/5597087413_b213856d7a_z.jpg 
royfellows
14 years ago
Maybe the auctioneers should re caption the painting:
"Metal mine in Wales, artist unknown"
My avatar is a poor likeness.
Wyn
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14 years ago
The difficulty with paintings of this age, is that the artist would exagerate features for dramatic effect, so hills can 'grow'.
Having said that when I first saw this picture, the shape of the hill reminded me of Mynydd Mawr from Drws y Coed. The road could be that one comining over the pass from Rhyd Ddu. The problem is though that I don't think Drws y Coed Mine had Steam back then.
davel
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14 years ago
Two more suggestions:

If the attribution is incorrect, the artist might be George Barrett junior (1767–1842), which seems more likely based on the dates. (As might be guessed from the name, George Barrett junior was the son of George Barrett senior. He was also a landscape painter.)

Secondly, if the title is incorrect, it might be 'Lead Mining near Carmarthen', which is not that different phonetically from 'Caernarfon'.

Dave
Graigfawr
14 years ago
On the basis of the structures shown and assuming that it is indeed a Welsh scene, a second quarter C19 date feels right. Interestingly this fits well with GB junior kindly flagged up as a possibilty by davel up-thread.

I'm not an art historian but stylistically the watercolour seems to broadly fit with a cira second quarter C19.

Carmarthenshire doesn't seem to fit; I'd advise checking out potential Carnarfonshire sites, bearing in mind comments up-thread concerning the liklihood of he background topography having been exaggerated somewhat.
Minegeo
14 years ago
Actually might not be a lead mine as it looks very similar to Felcia Simpson's 1853 impression of Tynfron (see page 100 of David Bick's "The old copper mines of Snowdonia".

Just a thought

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/photo/Personal-Album-1490-Image-61100 
rufenig
14 years ago
A bit of research has given some circumstantial evidence.
The painting is a watercolour.
Although George Barret Sen was in Cheshire & Wales at times.
A search of records seems to show him painting oils in a strong style.
G.B.Jr 1767 - 1842
Painted a view of Carenarfon castle (no date) in watercolour
in a style more like the mining picture.
http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/adams/catalogue-id-2835167/lot-10908580 
So if the attribution is wrong we have another 50 yrs to play with.
:smartass:
simonrl
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14 years ago
"Minegeo" wrote:

Actually might not be a lead mine as it looks very similar to Felcia Simpson's 1853 impression of Tynfron (see page 100 of David Bick's "The old copper mines of Snowdonia".

Just a thought

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/photo/Personal-Album-1490-Image-61100 



Popped round to my parents house tonight and my mum had found a copy of "The old copper mines of Snowdonia" in a local bookshop so had grabbed it for me. Was flicking through and saw that photo. Had forgotten about this thread, and see 2 others have already suggested the painting could be the Orme. But there is certainly a similarity between the two locations.

Minegeo's uploaded scan of the photo of Tynfron.

🔗Personal-Album-1490-Image-61100[linkphoto]Personal-Album-1490-Image-61100[/linkphoto][/link]
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