Oh dear! 😞 I didn't mean my comment as a criticism at all - but as I seemed to be hitting (and missing) a number of wrong keys as I was typing and then having to go back to correct them - if I noticed, I thought it looked as if other people were having the same problem yesterday.... apologies to all concerned. :flowers: :flowers:

Cheers

grahami

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C'mon guys
Graham didn't say anyone was thick but made the point about keyboard spelning mistakes which affect us all from time to time.
I served my time as a journalist when the standing of the profession was considerably higher that the sewer position of today but I would have had to go to the dictionary to check on the spelling of dyslexia yet James got it right first time. Strange how our brains work!
Possibly, like Graham, my attention was drawn to the previous posting by magneticfields who used the term "pish the rods throught the window".
Everyone makes "typos". My worst one was seen by all and sundry when I meant to write ..."plays the part of a Russian Count" but the o went missing in the last word. :oops:

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Oh dear! 😞 I didn't mean my comment as a criticism at all - but as I seemed to be hitting (and missing) a number of wrong keys as I was typing and then having to go back to correct them - if I noticed, I thought it looked as if other people were having the same problem yesterday.... apologies to all concerned. :flowers: :flowers:

Cheers

grahami

Sorry Grayham i do sometimes get a bit defensive about my spelling.no hard fellings.

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James, sorry to see criticism of your spelling on the furom but well done for sticking up about your dyslexia. I often miss out words in my sentences and that didn't stop me getting a Ph.D. I also note that there have been racist remarks on the forum about a Chinese contributor on LED lights and this should not be tolerated.

Martin

To be quite honest Martin, I think you are being a little (a lot?) over-sensitive here. The remarks about racism on the other thread are a bit far fetched. They are simply light hearted internet banter, and seem to have been taken as such by the person concerned. If he is not upset by the humour I don't see why you need to be!

I also feel that the remarks about the postings made by the man from China have been a little close to the knuckle at times. How do you know that he has not been upset by some of the remarks which have come across to me as being quite derisory? Perhaps a little more sensitivity towards our Chinese poster wouldn't go amiss :flowers:

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Mmm
I have been a little bit of a teaser here but this chap, assuming a man not a lady, has been a damn good sport.
Someone hinted about banning, but I said no.
Frankly, I hope that he/she posts again, whoever it is I am getting to like the person.

However, I cant see anyone other than Tony Oldham buying the lamp, and I have always had doubts about him.

See, it isn’t only the Chinese who fall victim to RF’s bizarre humour.

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I am suprised Tony hasn't complained that the photo (avatar) has no one in it for scale so he can't tell how big the lamp is! 😉 😉

Does anyone know when the beam engine complex at Dorothea was awarded Sceduled Ancient Monument (SAM) status?

Sorry to drag this back on topic.

But just noticed this story about the break-in:

http://www.caernarfonherald.co.uk/caernarfon-county-news/local-caernarfon-news/2009/10/22/vandals-attack-historic-talysarn-quarry-pumphouse-88817-24986343/ 

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Thats good to see maybe now something will be done.

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Thanks very much for the link, Andy. I agree that the engine is of national importance, but being the only extant Holman-built engine in its original house in the world makes it of international significance too.

Interestingly, Martin and I were over in the Netherlands last week and visited the Cruquius Museum near Amsterdam. This houses the enormous 144-inch Harvey-built steam engine installed in the 1840s to drain the Haarlemmermeer. It was one of three pumping stations: the other two, Leeghwater and Lynden, have been destroyed. Cruquius, which stopped pumping in 1932, would have gone the same way had it not been for the actions of the Koninklijk lnstituut van Ingenieurs to preserve it as an industrial monument.

It is now the jewel in the crown of a highly enjoyable visitor experience dedicated to the development of steam technology in the Netherlands, and the draining of the Haarlemmermeer. Seeing the plaque inside the immaculately maintained engine house stating that she was built by Harvey's Foundry, Hayle, Cornwall, brought tears to my eyes.

It would be fantastic if one day, people could enter a restored Dorothea engine house and see the Holman's plaque back on the engine there. These leviathans of the industrial world are so rare worldwide that it would be criminal to let Dorothea deteriorate further. Let's hope that this latest act of vandalism will be the catalyst necessary to get the owners of the land on board with the local community and a panel of industrial archaeologists to secure its future and to ensure that it is adequately protected, preferably with proper visitor access.

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I just hope while all this posturing and hand-wringing is going on that someone has already fully photographed every little bit of this engine and its engine house, as well as taking detailed dimensions from which (if they havn't already) accurate drawings can be made, before any more damage is done, and also so that if the worst happens then at least a full record will exist - preferably one which will have a copy deposited in the Gwynedd Archives.

Nothing is forever, admittedly, but funds, grants and goodwill do dry up, people get old, companies change hands, and associations change membership with different agendas - you only have to look at what happened to Chatterly Whitfield, and the things which were taken there from other places and what happened to them as a result.

Recording comes BEFORE preserving - otherwise it can be too late. The Penrhyn Balances and the Llechwedd Winder come to mind. (There are many other examples I can think of.)

(Gets off hobby-horse)

The engine and its house are certainly worth preserving - they are unique, and not only in North Wales.

Grahami

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We were shown around in approx 1993 and I made a video of the event. Filmed most of the inside of the biulding and some of the pipes and levers at the very bottom. And the boilers etc.
Somehow I cannot see the engine being restored in any way in its present place although that is where it worked which is a great shame.

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Martin has taken detailed measurements of the engine and bob, as well as the dimensions of the engine house. He has also photographed the contents of the 3 chambers and the cataract pit. Grahami is spot on about accurately recording features while they are extant and before any conservation/preservation, so I'll encourage him to write this up as a record.

Perhaps it is time that thought was given to relocating the engine house? I'd only see this as a last resort as where possible industrial features should remain in their landscape context. But I appreciate that this isn't always possible.

Resiting important heritage features can be done and I was particularly impressed with St Fagans and the way in which thousands of years of Welsh life and culture have been preserved through a variety of buildings that have been transported to the site stone by stone and brick by brick to be reassembled. The iron founders row, Rhyd y Car that came from Merthyr, has to one of the most simple yet stunning ways of telling the history of social conditions in an industrial and post industrial area that I have seen anywhere in the world :thumbsup:

Maybe Dorothea could be moved to a suitable venue somewhere else in Wales where it could tell the story of steam in the slate industry?

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I think a lot of the problem with Dorothea is a lack of direction from the land owners, they want to do various things on the site but are continually hamstrung by various authorities. Not that I am agreeing with some of their proposals, just highlighting the problems. In the mean time the engine house suffers.

The thing that worries me about moving buildings is the loss of context. To give one example. The Hafod Owen lift incline at Dinorwic. This was only moved "up the road" but in placing it where they did it totally lost it's context. It was a lift between two levels so they placed it on what must be the flattest piece of land in Padarn Country Park! I am not saying it had to be placed on the edge of a 60 foot drop, but at the very least it should have been placed adjacent to, say, a 10 foot drop.

Mr. Alun Ffred Jones is the Welsh Assembly Member (AM) for Arfon, which includes Nantlle. He is also the Welsh Heritage Minister with responsibilities including conservation. This covers the SAM status and future of Dorothea.
He can be contacted at:-
[email protected]

Many people and authorities have been talking about the matter off and on for years now. In fact we could talk about the engine until the sands of the desert freeze over, it does not mean that anything will be done about it.
Unfortunately the place is deteriorating fast while talking is getting nowhere.

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I know that Peter Claughton (Namho conservation officer) is aware of the situation at Dorothea and I hope that there might be some discussion at next months Namho committee meeting - certainly I will raise the matter.

Gwynfor Pierce Jones has suggest that some group of 'experts' be set up to look at options, costs and make recommendations. I don't if CADW or the local authority would host and fund this? I might email the Welsh Heritage Minister with this suggestion?

Martin

Had the chance of a look round the engine house last weekend.
The break in was by common pissed up vandals, they chucked the safety fencing round the pump shaft in to it leaving it open and dangerous, damage inside doesn't seem much and the two eye bolts are back inside (I can just about pick one end up), the police know who it was too. Wasn't anyone hunting for bronze.

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Martin has taken detailed measurements of the engine and bob, as well as the dimensions of the engine house. He has also photographed the contents of the 3 chambers and the cataract pit.

I'm glad the engine and building has finally been fully measured (I'm surprised CADW hadn't done this already!) and look forward to studying your report.

Mind you, having measured smaller engines and mine sites, I don't envy you the task, it must have taken you a couple of days!

Perhaps you can answer a couple of questions:

1. Is the vertical single-cylinder Mather engine still there?

2. Is the indoor stroke of the beam engine the same as the outdoor stroke?

3. Most important this, as I've always wondered .... is the clock a Joyce?

On some of the other points mentioned, such as moving the engine ... where would it go where it would be safe?

Better to leave it be, less chance of it getting "lost" and various museums have managed to do that!

Wales is littered with examples of neglected machinery, not just the Dorothea engine, the Robey incline engine, and the Penrhyn water balances, what about Glyn Pits, or the Point of Ayr winder - currently lying in pieces in the open, unprotected at Bersham ... I could go on!

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