Destruction at Llechwedd· Page 4

Vanoord
54.4% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

My tuppence-worth...

Firstly - perhaps mostly for those who will read this, but will not comment - allow me to say where I'm coming from.

I've lived in north Wales all my life and I believe that a huge amount of our heritage is tied up in the abandoned slate workings of the area. I don't think that many people realise how many people worked in the slate industry and certainly not the conditions, which we today would consider unacceptable. The slate tips and abandoned quaries stand as the only suitable momument to these men, one which is quite breathtaking in scale.

For my part, I'm an architectural historian - and somewhere I even have the certificate to prove it! I've therefore got an interest in the history that surrounds us that goes a little beyond the tourist outlook. I've seen many historical buildings in Wales lost forever and once something's gone, it's gone forever. In this instance, what's being lost is a very important part of Welsh heritage as it is the result of crafts and skills that we have have lost entirely.

No doubt this might give rise to the suggestion that I sit in a nice university office somewhere, wearing a tweed jacket, drinking a cup of tea and being paid a fortune by the state to do nothing. Not the case: I run a small business locally employing 12 people and we struggle to break even against a fickle market. So I'm not coming at this from a point of view that things should be preserved at the cost of jobs.

The destruction of this incline head is extremely regrettable: it simply isn't replacable. As far as I can see, there is no good reason for it, other than recovery of materials - some for re-use, some for scrap. For the sake of a very short-term gain, a historical artefact has been lost for future generations who will never be able to appreciate the skill, craftsmanship and sheer hard work that went into building it.

Pictures are nothing in comparison. It is only by being able to see for ourselves that we will ever understand our heritage. One can only hope that such destruction can be stopped, at least until buildings, inclines and other artefacts can be surveyed and recorded - and their historical worth assessed.

Surely some of the machinery removed could be given - or even sold to - the Welsh Slate Museum so that future generations can appreciate our heritage?

Would anyone from Greaves be willing to discuss their future care of our history?

Hello again darkness, my old friend...

jagman
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#62

Part of the point is Vanoord that Llechwedd and Maenofferen have several qualities that cannot be replicated by the Welsh Slate Museum.
The biggest of those is that the whole place is absolutely genuine, no frills, just the real McCoy. It has a site that cannot be rivaled and the buildings, workings (above and below) and skills cannot be allowed to be lost forever.
I realise that many of these things have traditionally been removed when their purpose is served but in this day and age of opencast and dumpers its will never be replaced.
When mills were abandoned in the past it was for a new one to be erected elsewhere and things moved on, when these ones have gone there are non to replace them and it is all lost. Forever.

JohnnearCfon
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#63

I have just had in "interesting" conversation with a friend who lives in Blaenau (and is well aware what has been happening to stop Llechwedd the last few days).

Someone (I do know who, but won't say more) was talking earlier to my friend, part of the conversation went like this:-

"They have only stopped my son dismantling machinery in Llechwedd now. It is all CADW's fault. They should mind their own damned business".

Well, firstly, I like the words "dismantling machinery". Secondly I would have thought it was precisely CADW's business to stop it!

This conversation does highlight the prevailing attitude!

Vanoord
54.4% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#64

(Reply to Jagman)

Machinery is moveable - better it goes somewhere it will be looked after than it is weighed in for scrap. There are, no doubt, plenty of bits of machinery lying around the site which would be better off elsewhere, if only to save then from being turned into razor blades!

Buildings can not be moved and I'd agree entirely that they should be left where they are, still standing - and maintained in their current condition at very least, better still made water-tight and looked after. That is the only way they can be left to tell their story to future generations.

Hello again darkness, my old friend...

JohnnearCfon
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#65

"Vanoord" wrote:
(Reply to Jagman)

Buildings can not be moved and I'd agree entirely that they should be left where they are, still standing - and maintained in their current condition at very least, better still made water-tight and looked after. That is the only way they can be left to tell their story to future generations.

Well, Vanoord, actually buildings can be moved! Even to the Welsh Slate Museum! The former Hafod Owen (Dinorwic) Winding house (complete with grass covered roof) is one example there, plus the 4 cottages moved from Tanygriau more recently.

jagman
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#66

I agree that as a last resort it is better than scrapping it Vanoord.
As for "dismantling machinery" if thats what they call it then they need to buy a fecking dictionary. Dismantling is not taking a look at a piece of functionable Victorian engineering (compressors etc) and smashing it with a 20 ton excavator.
Half that equipment would make a fortune to collectors (if not sold to museums, you know the type that actually preserve heritage) and would be saved for future generations to see.
This equipment and these buildings are an asset to be valued, if Llechwedd cannot see that then they have some serious issues to examine.
If you cannot appreciate an asset in terms greater than its scrap value (we aren't talking Ford Escorts here) then they have no business being anywhere near it.
Sorry to rant but I stood and looked at the remains of the Robey incline a few days ago, the person who thought the best thing to so with it was smash it to pieces is beneath contempt. The same people have the ******* nerve to criticise our response and scream that we don't have the right to interfere needs to go away and have a long hard chat with themselves, seeing as they have failed to do that then it is our responsiblity to remind them and anybody else who can have an influence(CADW)

DylanW
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#67

"jagman" wrote:
I agree that as a last resort it is better than scrapping it Vanoord.
As for "dismantling machinery" if thats what they call it then they need to buy a fecking dictionary. Dismantling is not taking a look at a piece of functionable Victorian engineering (compressors etc) and smashing it with a 20 ton excavator.
Half that equipment would make a fortune to collectors (if not sold to museums, you know the type that actually preserve heritage) and would be saved for future generations to see.
This equipment and these buildings are an asset to be valued, if Llechwedd cannot see that then they have some serious issues to examine.
If you cannot appreciate an asset in terms greater than its scrap value (we aren't talking Ford Escorts here) then they have no business being anywhere near it.
Sorry to rant but I stood and looked at the remains of the Robey incline a few days ago, the person who thought the best thing to so with it was smash it to pieces is beneath contempt. The same people have the ******* nerve to criticise our response and scream that we don't have the right to interfere needs to go away and have a long hard chat with themselves, seeing as they have failed to do that then it is our responsiblity to remind them and anybody else who can have an influence(CADW)

Blydi hell, do you actualu realise your talking about scrap metal and WORTHLES sawn end's here... get over it.... its called progress...

A sibrydodd yn welw ei wedd, rhowch garrag las ar fy medd, o chwaral y Penrhyn, lle''r euthym yn blentyn i''r gwaith.

DylanW
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#68

"Nimrod" wrote:

What do you believe in DylanW, apart from your wage packet, that is ?

Yes, I do belive in my wage packet.. thats whats paying my mortgage and utility bills etc, as I said b4, if you guys are willing to pay my bills, so i wont need to find another job ...so be it..., :smartass:

A sibrydodd yn welw ei wedd, rhowch garrag las ar fy medd, o chwaral y Penrhyn, lle''r euthym yn blentyn i''r gwaith.

jagman
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#69

Your absolutely right Dylan, thanks to muppets like you it is just now sawn ends and scrap metal. Now it is anyway.

simonrl
51% (Neutral)
Administration

18 years ago

#70

"DylanW" wrote:
Yes, I do belive in my wage packet.. thats whats paying my mortgage and utility bills etc, as I said b4, if you guys are willing to pay my bills, so i wont need to find another job ...so be it..., :smartass:

I believe in my wage packet too... but what you're saying really does suggest that Llechwedd's financial state is such that this was done purely for the scrap value, and not in the name of progress (whatever that implies).

my orders are to sit here and watch the world go by

JohnnearCfon
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#71

The large blue industial skip visible in the background and the face that some of the slates are already in use elsewhere does rather seem to confirm that!

It also seems to confirm Llechwedd's well known policy of scrapping something at, say £100 per ton, rather than sell it for say, the equvilent of £300 per ton. Hmm maybe they DO NEED new management! :guns:

jagman
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#72

"JohnnearCfon" wrote:
The large blue industial skip visible in the background and the face that some of the slates are already in use elsewhere does rather seem to confirm that!

It also seems to confirm Llechwedd's well known policy of scrapping something at, say £100 per ton, rather than sell it for say, the equvilent of £300 per ton. Hmm maybe they DO NEED new management! :guns:

Or perhaps more to the point that a slice of that "£100" per ton ends up in somebodies back pocket.
Its the only logical reason for anyone being happy to undersell.....

JohnnearCfon
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#73

"jagman
[/quote wrote:

Or perhaps more to the point that a slice of that "£100" per ton ends up in somebodies back pocket.
Its the only logical reason for anyone being happy to undersell.....

Ah, but Llechwedd have always (as far as I know) had that policy. Besides which whoever said "management" had to be logical? It also seems to confirm Llechwedd's well known policy of scrapping something at, say £100 per ton, rather than sell it for say, the equvilent of £300 per ton. Hmm maybe they DO NEED new management! :guns:

Miles
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#74

"DylanW" wrote:

"Nimrod" wrote:

What do you believe in DylanW, apart from your wage packet, that is ?

Yes, I do belive in my wage packet.. thats whats paying my mortgage and utility bills etc, as I said b4, if you guys are willing to pay my bills, so i wont need to find another job ...so be it..., :smartass:

Dylan

The point of this discussion and the reason we are upset is that a unique, 130 year old example of fine Victorian machinery has been mindlessly smashed to bits with a 20 ton digger.

They have been offered money for these artifacts, and if this building was in the way (yeah right), the machinery inside could have been removed non-destructively and put in one of many museums (including your own). Frankly I fail to see why it could not have been just left well alone, or, *gulp*, restored, given that there are decent grants available for that and you are a tourist attraction.

We've complained and said things could have been done differently. What we have not said is that we want to see anyone loose jobs or the quarry close, and I'll thank you for not putting words into our mouths. I have a lot of friends who work for your company and Mcalpines, and I know how important they are to the local economy.

I don't think your job would have been put at risk if say, that compressor had been unscrewed and sold to a museum or collector, rather than smashing it with a digger.

I would also point out that several of us litterally risked our lives recently to save your jobs, but you wouldn't know anything about that and I cannot discuss the details here anyway. Rest assured though - we've gone to great lengths for your pay packet.

I couldn't really give a monkeys if our efforts to peacfully document history are trespass or not. It's actually very important work and thanks to others sneaking around many years ago with a camera, we know now a lot we otherwise would not do about our past.

Think of it this way. In 100 years from now, there could have been our childrens childrens children standing by that Robey, admiring those who built and used it and actually learning something about the Welsh Quarrymen - and as one of them you ought to have an interest in that. Who would they thank - us for saving it? Or Greeves for scrapping it?

Thank god there are people around like us who will stand up to this kind of corporate vandalism.

JohnnearCfon
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#75

"'The' Miles

They have been offered money for these artifacts, and if this building was in the way (yeah right), the machinery inside could have been removed non-destructively and put in one of many museums (including your own). Frankly I fail to see why it could not have been just left well alone, or, *gulp*, restored, given that there are decent grants available for that and you are a tourist attraction.

Think of it this way. In 100 years from now, there could have been our childrens childrens children standing by that Robey, admiring those who built and used it and actually learning something about the Welsh Quarrymen - and as one of them you ought to have an interest in that. Who would they thank - us for saving it? Or Greeves for scrapping it?

Thank god there are people around like us who will stand up to this kind of corporate vandalism.[/quote wrote:

They can't even properly look after some of the stuff that is in their so called "museum" so what hope has anything else got! :guns: I doubt Coalition or The Eclipse will last another 10 years, let alone 100! :guns: :guns:

scooptram
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#76

to anwser dylen w no i dont want the quarry to close or any other place to close the point i was making was the machine could have been saved at NO cost to you it would have been dismantaled with spaners(things that undo nuts and bolts,we use them alot!) and moved at our cost so it would have been cash for you without having to do a thing , so you would have got your wages without having to do a bloody thing so i suggest you take a good long hard look at your heratage policy and also look up the word spanner and dismantle in the dictionary i think you will find it will not include digger in the expnation 😠 :guns:

LAP
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#77

"DylanW" wrote:

"Nimrod" wrote:

What do you believe in DylanW, apart from your wage packet, that is ?

Yes, I do belive in my wage packet.. thats whats paying my mortgage and utility bills etc, as I said b4, if you guys are willing to pay my bills, so i wont need to find another job ...so be it..., :smartass:

No offence man, but that don't make any sense "WAT"! :glare:

Kein geneis kanaf - Cain gnais canaf
Byt vndyd mwyhaf - byth onddyth moyav
Lliaws a bwyllaf - Líows o boylav
Ac a bryderaf - ac o boryddarav
Kyfarchaf y veird byt - covarcav yr vairth
Pryt nam dyweid - poryth na'm dowaith
Py gynheil y byt - Pa gonail y byth
Na syrch yn eissywyt - na soroc yn eishoyth
Neur byt bei syrchei - nour byth bai sorochai

JohnnearCfon
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#78

I understand that RHD has been smarting by all the negative publicity he has received about this. I also understand (when asked by someone privately) that he is at a total loss as to what he has done wrong!

On a better note, I understand from GCC, planning, that CADW were due to make an inspection at Llechwedd yesterday (18/6/07).

There is the possiblity of some other good news too, unfortunately it was told to me in the strictest confidence. I will say more when something a bit more definate is known.

DylanW
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#79

"JohnnearCfon" wrote:
I understand that RHD has been smarting by all the negative publicity he has received about this. I also understand (when asked by someone privately) that he is at a total loss as to what he has done wrong!

On a better note, I understand from GCC, planning, that CADW were due to make an inspection at Llechwedd yesterday (18/6/07).

There is the possiblity of some other good news too, unfortunately it was told to me in the strictest confidence. I will say more when something a bit more definate is known.

what exactly has he done thats wrong?
He 's not the only one who' s at a total loss on what has been done wrong

I guess your next move will be to stop us working foty pit

A sibrydodd yn welw ei wedd, rhowch garrag las ar fy medd, o chwaral y Penrhyn, lle''r euthym yn blentyn i''r gwaith.

Miles
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

18 years ago

#80

"DylanW" wrote:

"JohnnearCfon" wrote:
I understand that RHD has been smarting by all the negative publicity he has received about this. I also understand (when asked by someone privately) that he is at a total loss as to what he has done wrong!

On a better note, I understand from GCC, planning, that CADW were due to make an inspection at Llechwedd yesterday (18/6/07).

There is the possiblity of some other good news too, unfortunately it was told to me in the strictest confidence. I will say more when something a bit more definate is known.

what exactly has he done thats wrong?
He 's not the only one who' s at a total loss on what has been done wrong

I guess your next move will be to stop us working foty pit

why would anyone want to stop you working the pit?

The authorities obviously see it wrong enough to issue a halt order pending further investigation. At least an outside mediator with some power is assessing the situation...