" I'm sure you needed to do exams on top of the HND - CEI Part 2 was it? A lot of colleges ran courses to prepare for this exam. "

That was true for me as they changed it in my final year (1976) but before that, no, all you needed was the HND.
Fortunately the dear old Coal Board just sent us off to do another full time year for the CEI 2.
They said it was because they wanted to support the IMinE and without NCB engineers they would soon run out of Chartered Engineers.
I guess it was true because when the coal industry declined the IMinE had to merge with the IMM and then some other odds and ends to make the present IoMMM.

IoM3 absorbed IMinE and IMM

I achieved Chartered status with IoM3 in 2009 based on my pre-BTEC DipCSM plus a professional submission and interview. Of course the requirements for experienced or mature candidates are somewhat different.

Really, you keep coming back to the earlier point about the differences between pre-BTEC HND and Diplomas and BTEC accredited HND.

BTEC accredited HND are really derived from the civils structure, where there was no equivalent to Mine Manager, a detailed professional development structure operated between contractors and consultants, and a large local authority sector which provided a large, virtually static membership within UK.

Mining and the extractive industries generally, have always been very different from civils

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"Well, I've never been to Penryn"

'twas always known as Shag Town. :)

Lozz.

"Well, I've never been to Penryn"

'twas always known as Shag Town. :)

Lozz.

It was the Sand Sifters in my day, that or parties at the Nurses Accomodation at Treliske.

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"Well, I've never been to Penryn"

'twas always known as Shag Town. :)

Lozz.

It was the Sand Sifters in my day, that or parties at the Nurses Accomodation at Treliske.

No comment...

Lozz.

IoM3 absorbed IMinE and IMM...

Not exactly. Original IMM and IMinE merged to become IMM. IMinE had previously merged with IMEMME - the mining electrical and mechanical engineers.

The new IMM merged with the IoM (Materials) to become IMMM, or IoM3. IoM, originally Metals, had also absorbed a number of other bodies along the way.

Confusing, isn't it? It gets worse - I think the original IMM and IMinE started off as one body that de-merged.

...BTEC accredited HND are really derived from the civils structure, where there was no equivalent to Mine Manager, a detailed professional development structure operated between contractors and consultants, and a large local authority sector which provided a large, virtually static membership within UK...

I'm not quite sure what all that means! The HND was available in all sorts of subjects; science, business, not just engineering. In fact Business is the "B" in BTEC

BTEC was formed to accredit courses to national standards, and OND became BTEC Diploma, HND became BTEC Higher Diploma. Before that a number of different bodies oversaw the HND system, with Coal Mining HND's this was the IMinE.

I think the NVQ system replaced BTEC, and the system of NVQ levels still exists under a different name, which I have forgotten, possibly QCF?

The present Foundation Degrees are probably the closest thing to the old HND.

There must have been some good careers somewhere in the system, administering the constant changes.

Just realised I should get out more.

Gentlemen, my target for tonight - pub at 9.00pm.

BTEC was necessary due to the ongoing collapse of the old system as mass industrial employment in nationalised or homogenous industries vanished.

Civils has always had a clearly defined structure, underpinned by local authority employers who provide the critical mass of candidates that sustain it. There is no legal equivalent of Mine Manager etc, so that constituency never existed.

The old HND etc system was a parallel system of candidates combining workplace experience and academic training. You didn't need A Levels to enter it, but it was a very comprehensive system. That's probably why the original DipCSM wasn't accredited, because it lacked the overall structure; it was probably obsolescent as introduced.

IMM was always different, because it's membership was international with a wide range of differing backgrounds. I didn't follow the various politics too closely, but it was "received wisdom" in my CSM days that IMinE was basically a manifestation of the NCB's "not invented here" mentality.

Another issue is that whole categories of engineer developed in the rapidly changing offshore oilfields during the 1970s and 1980s. The American institutes didn't cater for them, ICE in particular slammed the door in their faces. Some, like IMechE and IEE embraced it; others, not so much.

That's how I became Chartered; because the IoM3, as it had developed by about 2003-04, allowed me to make a combined application based on various mining, pipeline construction and surveying elements. I wasn't the only one, it the first to do so, not by any means, and I suspect that applicants like me will dwindle in number as the new system becomes accepted.

This brings us back to the continued relevance of CSM. The old Mining Qualifucations Board has long been an irrekevance, because it's conditions can't be met. CSM is working with RICS to provide a recognised alternative to Mine Surveyor, which still exists in principle but in practice, is long dead as a workable system.

Someone needs to fill the gap as the last NCB dinosaurs are ushered gently, but firmly into retirement. Someone needs to represent the oilfield tramps.

Things change

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I taught HND courses until late 1990s, and so DipCSMwas still being awarded. I cannot remember anyone beinG given ACSM unless they had completed the degree course, hence the DipCSM qualification. The MCSM was given for all those who completed a masters just so they had some letters comparable with the ACSM as they had completed a degree course. THe MCSM was also awarded to those who had completed a research degree too, so I have the following BEng PhD ACSM MCSM. However I usually forget about the MCSM as it is nowhere near as important as the old ACSM.

I also remember many people leaving with DipCSM and ACSM having completed the HND course then transferring to the second year of the degree, which effectively gave after four years of study two qualifications.

Trawling around on LinkedIn, I find a number of people with this on their profiles. So, the BTEC HND/DipCSM seems to have functioned as a "foundation level" for BEng candidates who for one reason or another, didn't qualify for direct BEng entry originally. The latest date for qualification I can find by this admittedly limited approach, is 1999. It also looks as though pretty much all the later students used it as an entry to a BEng of some sort, with a surprising variety of titles.

The original DipCSM was, as has been remarked already, "Mineral Industries"

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