True, there are misty eyes in abundance whenever Cornish mining is mentioned, and a return to 'the way it was' is impractical.
I think WUM would have been out of there before now if they didn't think there was a chance of a profit.
As for the lack of reporting, I'm reminded of the early days of Mount Wellington Mine, when very little information was forthcoming from the company, and the locals got pretty irritated at the seemingly secretive goings on. The stop-start nature of the company (due to the spiralling costs involved with sinking the shaft) only added to the rumours that it was being used a tax sinkhole, amongst many other stories, so I think that WUM's 'silence' is nothing new for this type of venture.

Do you think there is any credible future in metalliferous mining in Cornwall at present?

Anwers on a postcard please......

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I think there are quite a few mines especially in the Godolphin area, and other fringe areas that could be worked above adit, but strictly on a 20-30 man base. The moment pumping is involved costs escalate 50 or 60 times if not more
The mines of Godolphin with the exception of Wheal Vor and Great Work were always known as wheelbarrow mines and worked in this fashion provided quite a good living for those involved. It was when public money through absent shareholders was injected and an attempt to turn every mine into a mini Dolcoath that they ceased to become viable.
As for wheal Vor, in the last re-working very rich stones of tin were found above adit and until we forget the obsession with depth plus the restrictive size of some of the setts which prevents lateral development I'm afraid things will stay as they are.
Another problem is imported officials that now dominate our councils who are definitely anti mining, as a matter of fact I think they are anti everything that will get Cornwall back on its industrial feet, and would prefer to pander to that sordid industry, the tourist trade.
Be warned fellow Celts in Wales, A World Heritage Site is not the place to be.

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I was in Cornwall at a time when the opening of Pendarves, Wheal Jane and Mount Wellington was quite recent history, and I knew people involved in the subsequent closure and re-opening of Wheal Jane.

Wheal Jane was, ultimately unsuccessful because of the water, but also because various ambitious technical programmes ( the hydraulic sand backfilling and the then-very advanced mineral processing ) didn't pay off. Mount Wellington was defeated by the water. Pendarves simply didn't make money, but produced enough ore of a sufficient quality and nature to be sort-of viable for some years as a secondary operation.

You must also remember that even then, Cornish mining would have been in the doldrums for thirty years ( since the 1930s ) and had become very insular; I don't believe that South Crofty and Geevor would have lasted so long without the influx of outside talent and experience brought in by Gold Fields and RTZ, and the outside contractors ( particularly Foraky and Thyssens ).

It's quite true that the incoming investors didn't feel the need to inform the locals what they were doing,that's a general comment. However you COULD look in the technical press, if you had access to it, and learn quite a lot, and that's still a general comment.


I didn't get offered a position at Combe Down because I was a nice chap who happened to be in the right place at the right time, I got it because I'd been plugged into the loop of industry gossip for years... with Foraky in the 80s, the same consultant in SE Cornwall in the mid-90s, with the same director in Iran in the mid-2000s, etc etc. That's how an industry of that sort works, in large part.

Frankly, the sums being spent at South Crofty aren't all that large for investors of that sort, well accustomed to quite high-risk, long-term ventures. The team there now are men who have long-term connections with the area, but when ( if ) they expand, they will draw that talent from further afield; they will have no real option.

I saw all this in Cornwall in the 70s, in Aberdeen in the development of the North Sea and I've seen it since in places like West Africa and Kazakhstan. This is why CSM has been largely focussed on the offshore industry in recent years, why the only successful start-up in Cornwall in recent years has been Seacore, with a mention in despatches for Hydrock; because the industry is about following the money.

Sitting outside the Job Centre whingeing about "local jobs for locals" isn't going to get you anywhere, because the people actually investing in those jobs aren't playing that game. Nor are they interested in the local faction fighting and land speculations. That has always been true, and hasn't changed.


The internet is a wonderful thing. I probably know more than I've ever known about what my contemporaries at CSM are doing now. I see them in Canada, Australia and elsewhere, having never returned; I see them in the oil industry, and running various operations ranging from land fill to the fire brigade, in one case. But, these are mainly up-country men; if they were indeed "wise men from the East", they were too wise to remain in Cornwall when there was no sufficient reason to do so.

I formed the view a long while ago that the Cornish did not understand mining on that level, that their insular views and clannishness tended to produce an unhealthy degree of putting the cart before the horse, or possibly expecting the cart to move itself in some way rather than use a horse from Exeter or other fabled cities in the wider world.

To a considerable extent, this comes from having attended CSM at a time when that Institution was changing, moving away from the insularity and resting on its laurels of the previous decades; and from its ongoing success, I'd say that was right. I always believed in Peter Hackett's reforms, at a time when they were a very divisive issue, because they seemed to me to be valid, and I think the passage of time has validated that view.



So, I await developments with considerable interest, less optimism, and in the knowledge that I have nothing to lose by being completely wrong. If the call comes to go down there for six months or a year for some specific purpose, all well and good. If not, all well and good too.

But it's my honest opinion that when you lose sight of the fact that mining is just another "hard dollar", you are missing the point.

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I did not go to CSM but have worked all my life in mining via other routes.
From my viewpoint, Derrickman's comments could equally well apply to other introverted mining regions too.
I would second his conclusions.

I`d 3rd them words,
The man in charge of the proposed Margam mine project for Tate steel,told us in a meeting at the IMI in Cardiff,that until 2wks previously,he had no connections with Mining at all,but is in charge off a £300m developement,whether this developement goes ahead,was supposed to be answered this Autumn,but seems to have been put off till next year.

He may have no experience,but has all the consultants at his disposal,and would`nt be surprised if it goes ahead,that the manning of this mine will be from outside the area,even foreign workers,as experienced men are not available anymore,to old due to no industry left to train men in sufficient numbers.

Sign of the times i`m affraid.

Consultants? That would be the men who steal your watch and then charge a fortune to tell you the time!

Knocker,
At one time I would have agreed with you. However, the way many large firms run their business, they deserve to be exploited.

If you get rid of all employees with any skills to save money, then do not train any one else, suddenly, when something unusual happens, you are stuck.

Certainly in UK mining there is a dwindling supply of skilled manpower at all levels.

it's a general comment on the deal-driven mentality which pervades our management practices.

Look at the Deepwater Horizon affair and draw your own conclusions, bearing in mind that prior to Lord Brown's appointment, BP were a world-class company with a reputation for technical ability.

This is where I would differ with staffordshirechina to some extent, although it's essentially a difference of background experience leading to related but differing conclusions.

The former nationalised coal industry did carry through, in the 1950s and 1960s, a programme of modernisation and development of a high order in at least some pits. NCB specifications and practices had an effect on the world industry, and companies like Anderson Mavor and Dosco prospered from this.

The railways were the same; look at the derelict, bankrupt hulks of companies which actually passed into nationalised ownership, and the pace of change into a diesel-hauled and partly electrified network which followed.

By the latter 1960s this had exhausted itself, and the closed metalities which are what staffordshirechina is referring to, were in the ascendancy. Selby was the great opportunity for change, and it was squandered for political reasons by both sides of the spectrum.

This rapid change never happened in Cornwall. The trackless mining and state-of-the-art min pro of Wheal Jane did not originate there. South Crofty radically overhauled its drilling and stoping practices in its last years, but it was last gasp, too little too late, stuff; doing things in the 1990s which I had seen in Canada in the 1970s.


I would concur with the comments about management skills. I moved across into being primarily concerned with first pipelines, then offshore construction, because I had learnt that some skills are generaly applicable and some aren't; you need to know which is which, and when to listen to your technical specialist advisors, but of you let the technical people run the budget you are usually heading for trouble. Likewise if you let the bean-counters control development, which is what we tend to do as a nation.

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I'm yet to have a good experience of a consultant. I've been working with some over the past few months which beggar belief, the only one who seems to have any idea is the consulting engineer!

well, yes. Proper consultants are professionally qualified by recognised institutes, the rest are just shysters

I'm also used to hearing the word 'consultant' applied in the sense of 'freelancer', which is a different matter altogether - I don't take this to be your meaning

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Friend of mine's father (who is an ex CSM lecturer from 1970's / 80's) is a mining consultant, always busy as it seems that good consultants in the mining industry will get known about quickly and will be in demand. But then I have found most engineering / scientific consultants to be more likley to do a good job than the business / planning / design / HR / management types .

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I'd be interested to know who the lecturer is- PM me if you like.

I think the main thing about engineering consultants is that much of what they do, and the assumptions and goals that it is based upon, is subject to real-world verification and/or independent peer-group review. Most of my offshore reports go through a process of comparison with other reports on the same subject, and/or recalculation by second and third parties, for example. These second or third parties are expected to reach similar conclusions, for obvious reasons.

The reason is, that engineers' mistakes tend to manifest themselves in fairly short order as great lumps of metal or concrete that break, won't go or don't fit together, tunnel drives that don't connect, or similar things that are fairly self-explanatory and not really subject to dispute.


"Soft-discipline" consultants don't have this focus, and it shows

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Celeste Copper Corporation has filed the NI 43-101 Report for the Dolcoath resources which total:

1,331,000 tonnes @ 0.44% Sn, 1.08% Cu and 0.66% Zn.

Five near surface deposit areas have been modeled, comprising of single and multiple narrow polymetallic lodes. These five areas are Dolcoath North, Dolcoath Middle, Dolcoath South, Dolcoath South South Branch and Dolcoath Flat.

It appears that these resources will be part of the basis on which WUM intend to build any future mine plan on.

I would say they need to increase tonnage of these deposits by 50% (to 2 Mt) and grade by 20% (to 1% Sn eq), and then bring that entirely into the M&I resource categories, in order to have a viable project in the current metal price environment. An additional 1 Mt inferred wouldn't go amiss either. Not impossible given some further exploration for depth extensions and enrichments on lode intersections.

http://www.usetdas.com/pr/celeste07142011.htm 

And the full report will be on SEDAR at some point.

Reading that, it looks like we are in for 12 months of extensive exploration in the Dolcoath Zone.

So, Mr Derrickman you accuse me apart from other things of missing the point, well, that's me put in my place. You then go on to refer to the Cornish as being clannish, maybe they are but now pots and kettles spring to mind. You then go on to say you have obtained employment all over the world, not necessarily by what you know but who you know, if that's not clannishness I don't know what is!
Now then your Highness I don't know what your beef is with the Welsh and their language (previous post) that has nothing to do with me, but I do know why you detest the Cornish.
When you came down here to be educated you were told in no uncertain terms that you are not the second coming nor do you have the ability to walk on water and that has had a profound affect on you for the rest of your life.
Oh, and before you put up another post that reads more like a job application don't mention Combe Down you've already done that over forty five times!
I notice now we also have a Derickhand what comes next Derrickphobia?

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Let's not let irrelevance, non-sequiturs and name calling get in the way of a good debate.

I think that modern mining attitudes are still concerned with the big-time. Still thinking big. You need a big mine in order to be successful and big mines need big deposits which you can drive a truck around in.

It's like saying, "It's only worthwhile finding an oil deposit which will fill my 250,000 Tonne tanker". Most of those were abroad and a lot of them have gone.

It's interesting to contemplate the evolution of mining, from old men's scratchings, to bigger mines, to uniteds and consolidateds to whole areas and then bust when there are bigger cheaper ones abroad.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that economies of scale are all well and good when you have massive deposits worked over huge areas.

I think the days of thinking in that manner are probably in most cases over. We are perhaps passed "peak x-metal" and the price reflects this.

As they said, Crofty had the reserves and Jane had the mine. I question the mentality which led to this statement. I don't think it's appropriate to Cornish deposits. Driving huge diggers around underground is not something we should strive towards.

I wonder whether the deposits of Cornwall and the mentality of mining companies with their proposed methods are suited at all.

Perhaps when all the really big deposits are worked out and hands are forced into operations which are viable given the size and scope of the reserves, will we see any action at all.

There are deposits to be worked and a lot of them have modern drill holes in from exploratory borings, however the mentality to do a Wheal Concord over say a Wheal Jane doesn't exist.

My interest is limited to history and geology and my economics general rather than mining specific. Feel free to pick over the above in an educating manner. 😉

To be honest Stuey you're close to the mark, however for tin my personal opinion is the time has come. There have been no significant tin finds in decades (Driven in part by the lack of exploration). The whole problem with tin is no matter what the mine the tonnages are small - unlike copper and zinc. san Rafael has provided the bulk of global consumption for years - it is unique offering a 5% grade in a huge deposit - its running out, production is down 25% this year. Indonesias output is falling, politics are making the Congo unfashionable.

Croftys exploration plans are not about proving that tin is there, everyone knows its there - its about working up a measured ore reserve to come up with a sound business plan to prove that someones investment of £100 Million is a sound investment - no one is going to spend that money on the basis of rumour and report - they want to see a core in their hand.

With regards to mining style, unfortunately trackless is the only way hand held drills (Jack legs) are all but illegal in this country, therefore the only way of mining is with a machine mounted drill - that requires a certain size tunnel, at which point you may as well employ scoop trams as opposed to rail bound transport. That said the 1030 they had over there, although an impressive bit of kit was too big!

The bit about drilling is beyond bonkers.

I expect it came from our lot, rather than the EU.

It will most certainly become relevant again when the price is even more ridiculous and people are crying out for minerals.

Let's see how the financial crisis (currently totally out of control over the channel and currently eclipsed by phone hacking - of all things) plays with their empire.

I hope it burns the bloody thing to the ground....and expect it will also!

well, yes. Proper consultants are professionally qualified by recognised institutes, the rest are just shysters

I'm also used to hearing the word 'consultant' applied in the sense of 'freelancer', which is a different matter altogether - I don't take this to be your meaning

I find the opposite re most consultants in just about every area I have come across them inc in my dealings with the mining industry. They are often the biggest Shysters going and offer little more than a smooth suit, interest in their own bottom lines and finding jobs for the boys (their Cronies) in invented roles to back up their pet theory being applied that week... as soon as it starts looking like their plan (pet theory) is not going to deliver they make the excuse they can't continue as they are not getting the support from the company and their recommendations are not being implemented correctly... viz a viz they have screwed up but thanks for the cheque anyway.
Alot of those that are successful usually go ask the workforce what the issues are and how they would solve them, repackage that info and then get it implemented by the company who could probably have sorted it if they'd only listened to their staff... OOOOOH lotta skill there then!

As a shyster I get lots of calls to clean up, re plan (properly) and fix the broken mess left by these guys, based on sound experience in the field, product knowledge and an understanding of the real interfaces required to project plan and engineer solutions that work.... so I would rather be a shyster than a cliquey over paid suit attached to a professional/institutional body.

That said I have met some great consultants with whom I would work anyday and that are practical, experienced, realistic, truthful and stick at a job until the end and its right staking their professional reputations and quite often their fees, but they are few and far between.

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I think the days of thinking in that manner are probably in most cases over. We are perhaps passed "peak x-metal" and the price reflects this.

As they said, Crofty had the reserves and Jane had the mine. I question the mentality which led to this statement. I don't think it's appropriate to Cornish deposits. Driving huge diggers around underground is not something we should strive towards.

There are plenty of new tin deposits which could be brought into production in a high price environment, in places like Australia, Morocco, Spain and Brazil. The next generation of tin mines will be mechanised hard rock operations. Some of them will be low grade bulk opencast operations, the tin equivalent of Hemerdon. Others will be wider sheeted vein/skarn etc underground orebodies with 0.5-1% Sn eq grades. None of them will be narrow vein (lode) mines, in the traditional Cornish sense.

The reason narrow vein mining is unnattractive is the high cost of proving resources, and then mining resources. The only situation in which it is viable is where you have a cluster of lodes near surface or existing tunnels (large enough for scooptrams etc) and you can drill multiple lodes from each hole, and development level etc.

Narrow vein mining of the type pursued historically is not the future, and we will not see a return to jacklegs and shaft mines in Cornwall - regardless of H&S legislation. Operating costs are too high, probably well over £100/tonne.

Mechanised narrow vein mining is possible, and can be economic, but it's a tough business to start from scratch on. It's very difficult to prove enough resources of a decent grade in one area to justify the capital expenditure of building a mine and mill. Either by development or drilling, its prohibitively expensive. The best site is probably the ground between Old Dolcoath and New Dolcoath, which is the present focus of South Crofty's exploration. If they can make it work there, it will be quite an achievement.