South Crofty Spring 2009· Page 2

stuey
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16 years ago

"spitfire" wrote:
Stuey wrote

Quote:

For instance, Killifreth is down as being a bloody good prospect for tin (funnily enough, not in Trounson's book, or Cornwall's minerals plan) and I don't imagine it would be a great idea to go sinking a monster decline to what could be quite a localised deposit.
I don't know what book you're reading but Trounson devotes no less than nineteen pages to Killifreth and as others, regards it as a good bet.
The reason being it was stopped owing to a low tin price and not a lack of ore, also it is situated between Wheal Busy and Poldice but at a much shallower depth.
As to your remarks on Crofty, let the mining men do the mining and remember the old saying, "Those that can do those that can't teach"!

Ahhh, I was confusing Killifreth's lack of presence with CCC's blurb.

I agree about your comment about teachers. Most of them are a waste of oxygen.

I would say Those who do have little holidays and those that can't have big holidays.

More apt and the real reason classrooms are full of workshy wasters (in the majority)

carnkie
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16 years ago

#22

"stuey" wrote:

So, remembering Trounson's book and having a look at the sorts of lodes which are on the future "hit list", I think the Crofty/Jane big mine approach will not be such a good idea. Obviously, there is then the question of how you make it pay.

For instance, Killifreth is down as being a bloody good prospect for tin (funnily enough, not in Trounson's book, or Cornwall's minerals plan) and I don't imagine it would be a great idea to go sinking a monster decline to what could be quite a localised deposit.

I'm not quite sure which of Trounson's books you are referring too. I mention this because in his "Cornwall's Future Mines-Areas in Cornwall of Mineral potential" he goes into about 20 pages of detail about Killifreth. Conclusion-unless one is prepared to go deep, Killifreth would seem to be one of the most promising prospects for tin in the whole of Cornwall.
Edit.
I took so long writing this I didn't read Spitfire's reply ::)

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.

Tezarchaeon
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16 years ago

#23

What about Redmoor mine then? There were big plans for that before the price crash.

I reckon that could be on the cards as the next new mine after the obvious prospects.

stuey
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16 years ago

#24

Interesting about Redmoor.

Here are 2 photos of the safeguarded shafts list, courtesy of the now defunct CCC website.

Devon have allowed their mineral planning lists to be very heavily pruned, largely due to over eco-meddling. I expect to see the current list virtually obliterated as I imagine the Cornwall as a museum/butlins gang will act in "our best interests". At the moment it almost seems too sensible/realistic to be the product of the govt.

Knocker
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16 years ago

#25

Something to be careful of Stuey regarding mining types, your mining method has to suit your lode, you can't make your lode suit your mining methods.

What you are seeing at crofty at present is very large equipment working on the main haulage, Unless they find something very interesting (like maybe the wide formation if it does exist), i very much doubt the ST1020 will ever enter a stope, and that is why they only have one of those and 6 smaller machines.

There is no point creating a 4m wide stope for a 1m wide lode, and shrinkage stoping is highly unlikey to be permissable due to VBW. This is the point at which our illustrious councillor throws in the towel and says mining can not happen at crofty due to blahdy blah blah. To get over this the Cornish miner has to become the cornish miner of 130 years ago as opposed to the miner of 20 years ago, by this I mean he has to be able to come up with ways around problems - and believe me these problems are small compared to 130 years ago when the problem was ventilation and 200 years ago when the problem was water!

We don't even need to be particularly innovative, someone has got there before us, because we sat back! The equipment manufacturers have recognised the problem and have come up with production rigs that are only 0.8m wide, which will deal with most cornish stopes down to about 0.6 (Remember our width is not vertical) with little dilution - that gets over one problem dealing with narrow lodes while minimising dilution.

Next problem what do we do with a poor hanging wall? Which is the other reason shrinkage stoping was employed, in order for the shrink pile to provude support to the hanging wall, the only way this can be achieved is to backfill as you go, start at the bottom, underhand stope the back, half fill the void with fill and repeat.

Any mine that operates by bringing 50% waste to surface is pretty much doomed to failure

stuey
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16 years ago

#26

Nice reply there Knocker.

One thing I would like to see is Crofty actually giving some feedback to the public about what they are up to. It's not as if someone is going to start up a mine next door and nick their methods!

Anyone would think they were up to no good down there. Cue the worlds first crystal meth mine.

I would like to see some photos, a diary perhaps and a bit more public spirit.

Looking at Piran's flags on the back of cars, there is a fair bit of local pride in Cornwall. I'd be interested and from an education resource, there is stuff there to be shared far and wide.

More importantly, when the RDA start being arses, popular opinion will favour the mine, rather than the RDA who do have their fancy website/posters/spin/propaganda etc.

Whilst I understand that Crofty is a mine and not a political party and lack of advertising makes no difference whatsoever, it's a shame that they do not use their potential "pride of the county" status.

We all know the blokes are going hell for leather down there, but all anyone else sees is a shitty old yard with some rusting stuff and a few big yellow things that move around a bit.....

Anyway..... dunlike change spose.

agricola
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16 years ago

#27

I am sorry that there is not more information, there are many who will if asked tell. However, the lack of public information and the methodology behind this decision lies with those at the top and certainly not the miners. Its a shame that for whatever reason, more information is not forthcoming.

If it can't be grown it has to be mined.

derrickman
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16 years ago

#28

VBW?

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.

Roy Morton
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16 years ago

#29

VBW = Vibration White Finger, a condition brought on by use of drilling machines. The vibration of the machine destroys the capilliaries in the hand and especially the fingers causing lack of blood supply and creating the characteristic White finger, This is accompanied by pain.
The cartilidge that normally buffers the joints between the bones can also be damaged, causing bone to rub on bone (crepitus) and even more pain.

Striding on, and back to future prospects, Killifreth was reported in 1923 as having good future.

The following extract is from a booklet entitled, 'Cornwall' published by the Cornish Institute of Engineers for the International Mining Exhibition held in London on June1st to June 14th 1923.

The company holds under mining leases the Killifreth, Wheal Busy, Hallenbeagle and Unity Wood Mines, at Chacewater, covering a total area of about 750 acres.
The Killifreth Tin Mine was worked years ago to a depth of 600 feet, but operations were suspended owing to the then low price of tin. Re-opened again in 1921, a great deal of development was accomplished and some 3000 tons of ore crushed, for an average of 40lbs of black tin per ton (1.78% ! R.M.) Owing to the coal strike and labour troubles, working again ceased, but it is hoped that very shortly it may be recommenced, as at the present price of tin the mine should be very profitably worked.

The article goes on to say that Wheal Busy is being developed and that the future there is not only in tin, but in the arsenic deposits. The other mines mentioned, Unity wood and Hallenbeagle, they say will be investigated and worked when 'opportunity offers'.

Other working mines mentioned in the booklet are,
Geevor,
South Crofty Ltd
East Pool and Agar Ltd
Tolgus Mines Ltd
Treamble (Perran Great Iron Lode)
Poligy Mine, (Polighey) Wendron
Kingsdown (Hewas Water) Tin Mines Ltd
North Tincroft
Societe Industrielle Du Radium, South Terras Grampound Road,
Reskadinnick Tin Streams Bodithiel Silver Lead Mine
St Austell Consols.
Most of them sound pretty good, but then thats what the spin doctors of the day (Bal Sellers) wanted you to think !
😉
With worldwide supplies of commodities running short and pirates roaming the seas, the home markets are looking increasingly attractive.
The balance now is Pirates v Environmentalists. you pays your money and you takes your chance. 😉

"You Chinese think of everything!"
"But I''m not Chinese!"
"Then you must have forgotten something!"

derrickman
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16 years ago

#30

I've never known it so described, I know it as HAV ( Hand arm Vibration ) which is the term used in the relevant limitations required to be monitored

although I suppose the one is the cause, and the other is the effect?

actually I am not convinced that this would prevent shrinkage stoping. My experience of vibration-damped machines is that it is a serious constraint on clay-spades ( jigger picks ) and similar machines, because the effect of the damping buffer is to reduce the weight on the blade; but I don't see why this would be a constraint on a machine of the air-leg type, and les so a machine of the fixed-leg 'stoper drill' type.

on the other hand I can easily believe that the 'Elf'n'safety side of writing a Risk Assessment for miners walking under the broken hanging wall, on top of a pile of loose rock possibly containing unfired charges from the previous round, in an atmosphere charged with blasting fumes and dust, would be a different matter.

am I right in thinking that Crofty worked using a different system in its last days, of longholes drilled from a raise climber along the lode?

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.

Boy Engineer
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16 years ago

#31

Bit off topic but we can't let this pass without comment:

Quote:

I agree about your comment about teachers. Most of them are a waste of oxygen.

I would say Those who do have little holidays and those that can't have big holidays.

More apt and the real reason classrooms are full of workshy wasters (in the majority)

As an ex mine manager, and husband of a teacher, I know where I'd find more workshy wasters, and it wouldn't be in a classroom. People seem to have a rosy view of miners, and in my experience they are just as likely to skive off as any one else, and probably have more opportunity. Given the choice between a shift doing pretty well any job in a mine, or dealing with 30 kids whose pushy parents all want little Johnny to have personalised tuition, you'd find me down the pit. End of rant.

Knocker
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16 years ago

#32

Hell! Light the blue touch paper boy engineer! Actually you are pretty much bang on!

I remmeber 10 years ago working in a large UK mine on work experience, we were installing conveyor structure on a main haulage, with an acceptable target of 75m/day - we would generally hit that target 3 hours before the end of the shift, at which point we would sit in the main access drive with our headlights off - that way you could see anyone approaching when thwey were well over a kilometre away, so by the time they got to our position we had ghosted away into the working drive.

I always imagined at Crofty it would be generally easier again as due to the fact the access was by cage (As where I was, and we always got a radio message that a manager was entering the mine, so no management ever found anyone doing anything but work), it would be 3/4 houtr before the working locations were reached, by which time the jungl;e drums would have got the message through.

Thats another big advantage of decline access, anyone can turn up at anytime with little or no warning!

With regards to VBW, it wass a common acronym when I was working on construction sites, HAV being the other, another being WBV (Whole body vibration), affecting machine operators apparently, I find it hard to believe with the air suspension seats mostlarge machines now have - confusing or what!

At present with rockdrills the maximum time a man is allowed to use a rockdrill (Jackleg) is 20 minutes/day, making anyform of shrinkage stoping impossible, unless you use a lot of men!

Peter Burgess
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16 years ago

#33

Boy Engineer - I'm with you. That stupid little saying about those who can, do, etc etc. is something trotted out by those who think they are being smart when in reality they are often too lazy to think and appreciate what good teachers have done, and continue to do, and what's more do so quietly out of the limelight, taking all the flak from people who have no concept of what good teaching involves. As for miners, I don't care what technology they use, it's hard dirty work, and not a job to be sniffed at. A bit like teaching in that respect. I wouldn't want to do it.

Knocker
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16 years ago

#34

Agricola, talking of progress, by my reckoning you are somewhere under the field just after the bungalows at dolcoath close? Am I near the mark? If so have you found the old shaft that is near there, I reckon you would have passed within 30m

justin
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16 years ago

#35

"agricola" wrote:
I am sorry that there is not more information, there are many who will if asked tell. However, the lack of public information and the methodology behind this decision lies with those at the top and certainly not the miners. Its a shame that for whatever reason, more information is not forthcoming.

😉
While i can understand peoples interest in whats going on..
We should all remember that this is a business and as such there are commercial reasons for not releasing too much information..
We wouldn't expect any other company to provide details of objectives, business plans, etc would we !!!

Most of us "on ere" know what the long term objectives are and the general progress and state of play....
Any blanks can generally be filled in "at the bar" 😉

nuff said

Roy Morton
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16 years ago

#36

Back to the VWF bit for the last time, this is how it is described and should be treated according to - 'South Crofty Mine, Managers Rules 1988' -

flink]Personal-Album-342-Image-34166[linkphoto]Personal-Album-342-Image-34166[/linkphoto][/link]

🔗Personal-Album-342-Image-34167[linkphoto]Personal-Album-342-Image-34167[/linkphoto][/link]

"You Chinese think of everything!"
"But I''m not Chinese!"
"Then you must have forgotten something!"

derrickman
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16 years ago

#37

that all looks pretty familiar.

I was working in the onshore oil and gas business ( land rigs and pipelines ) at that time and for some years afterwards, and White Finger isn't really an issue in that sector. I came back into UK work in the 90s, much concerned with the tunnelling side of onshore pipelines, but most of that is mechanised anyway.

but I remember the '20 minutes a day' figure re jiggers, and having to keep records of individual exposure times for the small number of hand-dug pipejacks which any onshore line ends up including.

my wife is a college lecturer so I'm not getting involved with the other issue :blink:

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.

Blackcraig1
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16 years ago

#38

VWF is an issue in forestry work as well, I got tought about it during my chainsaw course (during my brief period as a forestry student). I can't remember the specific details though but they should be similar to the info posted above.

agricola
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16 years ago

#39

In response to some of the other comments, I count myself fortunate to be able to 'do' and teach although Knocker may state otherwise !

On the subject of advance, Knocker you are partially correct. Some where behind FT Williams.

As for HAV etc, it is a problem and it would be fair to say that it played its part in the decision to go trackless.

If it can't be grown it has to be mined.

Knocker
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16 years ago

#40

If thats the case you must be headed pretty much straight at the shaft????

Anyway your teaching wasn't too bad, I'm surviving on it, was setting in some holding down bolts last week, with some extremely tght tolerances (2mm), including for plumbing, out of64 bolts only one was out of tolerance by 1mm, which required some persuasion with a sledgehammer. The only reason I was setting them out was because every other bloody engineer refused to, meaning I had to!