Interesting one this, there's what looks to be a stone buddle on the left hand side.

Photograph:

🔗99660[linkphoto]99660[/linkphoto][/link]

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Yes, obviously my interpretation of location is open to dispute.
However, the buildings lower left appear to be those in a terrace on Waterloo Road, so the road beyond them is the lower part of Upperwood Road.

To the best of my knowledge there is only Angelina's east of the road, and other shaft east of the road reputed to exist in a garden lower down, however this would present a different perspective.

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Very interesting. I am hoping to walk through Upperwood and Masson later this week, weather permitting, and will take a look into this.
Since we did the survey back in 1972, more information has become available and of course, I have written it up as well as I can for the Matlock book now in preparation.
So much has completely disappeared, including a shaft 80 feet deep above Hopping Pipe Adit which was recorded in c.1957.

Hi gang

Check these out!
http://www.andrewsgen.com/matlock/pix/matlockbath_cavern_fluorspar_hoj01.htm 

Look at the Upperwood picture.

From the website:
This is one of only two pictures of Upperwood, high on the hill above Matlock Bath and about 700 feet above sea level. Riber Castle stands out on the far hillside and Starkholmes is below it. The card's title is slightly misleading as most of Matlock Bath is out of site!

The house centre left, only partly seen, has washing in the garden (like two eyes in a mask!) is Valley View where, in 1908, Charles Gregory let out apartments[1]. The web mistress is uncertain what the property next door is called. Below these two houses is a road junction and just below the junction, on the left, is the entrance to the Speedwell Cavern. In the mid nineteenth century Benjamin Froggatt, who also lived in Upper Wood, was the cavern guide[2]. The cavern is opposite a small cottage called Angelina's Cottage.

On the right is a further group of houses, the largest of which is Upperwood Farm and this photograph shows the building with an extension on the left hand end (the farmhouse had not been extended on the nineteenth century picture elsewhere on the site). Daniel Massey was the farmer here at the end of the nineteenth century and he was followed by James Steeples[3]. Another house is mostly hidden from view by the farm - this is Cumberland House, or Cumberland Lodge as it was in 1901[4]. In the area between Cumberland House and the other unnamed building is where the Zoo Tea Gardens were.

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A bit more
Looking at these pictures I am even more convinced that my placing of Dickies picture is correct, but feel that it is probably older than he thinks. Look at the tree growth in the later picture on the Andrews website.

Looking at the picture of Fluorspar Cavern I think that my placing of it at the site of the memorial plaque is incorrect and that it is actually further north by the old pig sty's

I hope that I am not becoming a bore with this, but once I get interested in a particular area this is what I am like.

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From 40 year memory;
From the layby on Upperwood road, there was a bricked up level across the road - Hopping?, a scramble down the bank at the side of the layby led to a dry stone arched level going in from the pig sty - Flourspar?, another scramble across the rift at the side of the pig sty gave access to another rift-like entrance, this was definitely Tear Britches, the other two names could be interchangeable.
All three levels met at a large chamber not far in where a passage led off the back to eventually end up in Royal Mine, which is now the 'show cave' in Gullivers Kingdom.

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From 40 year memory;
From the layby on Upperwood road, there was a bricked up level across the road - Hopping?,

Yes, as now

a scramble down the bank at the side of the layby led to a dry stone arched level going in from the pig sty - Flourspar?,

This is where I thought it would be now after more thinking. No trace all filled in and overgrown

another scramble across the rift at the side of the pig sty gave access to another rift-like entrance, this was definitely Tear Britches, the other two names could be interchangeable.
All three levels met at a large chamber not far in where a passage led off the back to eventually end up in Royal Mine, which is now the 'show cave' in Gullivers Kingdom.

I think they have closed the show cave as there is no mention of it on their website. The theme park appears to have been gradually extended over the years as well.

Thanks for the input.

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I was passing through Upperwood on Wednesday on my way up Masson, and to my surprise, the answer to the mystery ‘shaft’ was at once obvious. The most southwardly house in Upperwood (at the corner where the bridle-path turns down to Cumberland Cavern) has a small field at the back with an almost identical wooden enclosure round its septic tank. The owner of the house kindly allowed me to inspect the site. Trees growing along the top of Gulliver’s Kingdom obstruct the view over to Riber but I have no doubt that this is the same feature as in the foreground of Dickie Bird’s photo. The perspective suggests it may have been taken from a window of the house. I took a photo but cannot work out how to attach it to this message.

What is of interest is the disturbed ground to the left of the fencing. I believe this is almost certainly the wasteheap of Robin Hood Mine, a very small working that was active 200 years ago. I had known that it was somewhere in this field and it is very useful to get a location that I can mark on the map. There is no trace of the wasteheap now – probably removed for fluorspar. Perhaps its shaft was adapted to contain the septic tank, to avoid having to excavate solid rock. I will put a bit in the draft of my book about this. Dickie Bird certainly has a remarkable collection of photos.

I have long been fascinated by the gap between the Royal workings and Cumberland Cavern, as that area is very interesting geologically. Since we did the survey of the Royal system in 1972, I have discovered that there were backfilled passages heading southwards off it towards Cumbo and they would have approached Robin Hood Mine. I would certainly have dug them open then but of course, that is not now possible with Royal Mine being a show cave. It is still mentioned as a show cave in the brochures being handed out.
[img][/img]

Fascinating, thanks for this.
The photo caption will now need changing of course.

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I was round there Friday and not so sure, this was taken from the path

🔗99776[linkphoto]99776[/linkphoto][/link]

I appreciate that the perspective is different and agree the original was probably taken from a window in the house but the distance to the fall of ground doesn't look right to me.

I am still perplexed by the area to a degree.

For anyone interested this is current state of play to best of my knowledge and belief re the Hopping- tear breeches complex.

Hopping Mine- side of road opp parking area, securely blocked off.

Fluorspar Cavern or Tear breeches Upper entry, no trace and suspect it further north than the memorial plaque

Tear Breeches lower, open in a sense but descending route to workings well and truly filled in. Now it just goes blind.

Speedwell Mine upper, in road fork, filled in and tarmac or hardstanding extended over where it was originally.

Speedwell Lower or Royal Mine is showcave in Gullivers Kingdom.

Shafts are very difficult to position on surface but none open that I am aware of.

What I did turn up (mere crumbs!) was the upper flight of steps that originally led down from Fluorspar Cavern to the Romantic Rocks walk. Well covered with leaves etc, but still there.
I need to get a life.

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There was a shaft exposed while the owner of a property (just up the lane from Roy's photo) was doing some work...

🔗99798[linkphoto]99798[/linkphoto][/link]
🔗99797[linkphoto]99797[/linkphoto][/link]
🔗99796[linkphoto]99796[/linkphoto][/link]

I'm not sure which mine this was on, but certainly Tear Breeches/ Royal Mine area.

Regarding the 1920's photo, I think there's enough detail to triangulate a position, I'll give it a go when time permits.

I have been amazed at the local interest generated by this old image. My forebear would have been amazed! I must go and have another look at the area, following all this activity.

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I have been amazed at the local interest generated by this old image. My forebear would have been amazed! I must go and have another look at the area, following all this activity.

I think I may have the answer to this now.
I think it may be the no 8 shaft in Roger Flindall's survey which is above Upperwood Road, so the view point is from the edge of the Hopping Field looking out. Upperwood Road is below the fall of ground. So Hopping Pipe Mine adit would be below the biggest tree.
Opinions?

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On perhaps my first visit to Royal Mine (Speedwell) in around 1965 I entered a complex of right angled, walking size passages to the south - Cumberland Cavern - direction. I seem to recall a bricked up entrance which probably lead into the same system. Strangely, I never saw this system again. The way in, as you would expect was past the big opening in the quarry wall.
There was a shaft in the field behind the Flourspar Cavern entrance (roadside) and I remember this entrance open, later sealed. At least once I exited the system via the Tear Britches entrance after this and also up the steps and out of the Flourspar Cavern show cave entrance.
There were stories of other shafts and of someone using one of these to dispose of sewerage - that could have been on the Devonshire system but Speedwell comes to mind first.

I've plotted a few known points from the photo and come up with a location. As it happens, I took a photo from near this spot in 2002 and the features match pretty well.

🔗99882[linkphoto]99882[/linkphoto][/link]
🔗99883[linkphoto]99883[/linkphoto][/link]

This is hopping field above hopping pipe adit. Camera position is wrong, but there is your shaft and ground looks right.

🔗100314[linkphoto]100314[/linkphoto][/link]

I would put money on it.

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Interesting. Just for an exercise, I have copied Roy's image and superimposed this (in three states of transparency) over the original, via Photoshop. Not the easiest thing to visualise, but the main difference - apart from the trees, of course - is the seemingly different scale of the Starkholmes/Riber hill in the background. Probably as a result of the widely different focal lengths of the lenses.

🔗100322[linkphoto]100322[/linkphoto][/link]

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I had to move up the field which is south towards the first house to take it at what I thought was the right angle from memory. If I had your original with me I would have been nearer the house to get it better still.
I am wondering if your grandfather at some time either owned that house , or was staying there?

This would be the first house you meet on the right after Hopping Pipe going towards Speedwell. This is to the right of Mr Lampwicks location on his map.
So if I am right, he is not very far wrong, in fact very close.

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