mikebee62
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14 years ago
Hi,
Can anyone give me a rough Idea of how much water a Beam engine could pump out of a mine, depending on the size of the cylinder in inches?, Gallons/day or Hour etc ?. Nothing too technical, just a rough average when working to normal design tolerences.
Many Thanks.
'Of cause its safe, just dont touch anything !!'
JR
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14 years ago
"Although the amount of water pumped per stroke was only 90 gallons, or 900 lb. in weight, the weight of the total column of water moving in the shaft at each stroke was 84.7 tons, equivalent to 26.9 lb. per square inch of piston area. This is a very heavy load for a Cornish engine which, if it is to work at maximum efficiency, should not be loaded to more than 15 lb. per square inch of piston area.".
This is for the 90" Pump at Taylor's shaft of East Pool. (taken from "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lawrence.roy/cornwall/engine.htm"

๐Ÿ™‚
sleep is a caffeine deficiency.
ICLOK
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14 years ago
Blimey Mike..... thats gotta be one of the most awkward questions ever asked on here ๐Ÿ™‚ .... whilst I am sure there is a ton of theoretical answers to this my feeling is that every single application of steam pumping technology was bespoke to each application regardless of any standardisation of the engines/plant itself.... to the archives Batman!!!
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
owd git
14 years ago
Whilst it is no longer in a mine, the one at Lea pump house supplying the Cromford canal lifts ten tons a stroke. how fast depends on stoking. !
Open and in steam every bank holiday.
O. G.
mikebee62
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14 years ago
"ICLOK" wrote:

Blimey Mike..... thats gotta be one of the most awkward questions ever asked on here ๐Ÿ™‚ .... whilst I am sure there is a ton of theoretical answers to this my feeling is that every single application of steam pumping technology was bespoke to each application regardless of any standardisation of the engines/plant itself.... to the archives Batman!!!



Always like to ask the easy questions Lol !!! :lol:
'Of cause its safe, just dont touch anything !!'
agricola
14 years ago
This is a really good question. I'll have a good look through my Lean's Engine Reporter Database, and then I'll be able to give a reasonably definitive answer. :smartass:

My initial thoughts are - the amount has nothing really to do with size of cylinder, the major factors are :

Size of pumps - Diameter - the bigger the greater the volume of water that can be moved.
Stroke rate - the speed at which the engine works.
Length of stroke in pumps.

As steam was only used to pull the rod indoors (upwards), then the larger the cylinder would provide more power especially in mines that were deep such as Dolcoath's New Sump shaft.
If it can't be grown it has to be mined.
agricola
14 years ago
Having had a look, its simple.

Say 10ft stroke in pumps, 6 strokes per min and 12inch diameter pumps.

Amount of water in lbs per stroke approx 491lbs
1 Imperial gallon = 10lbs therefore
49.1 gallons per stroke.

If the engine was going at 6 strokes per minute this will give 294 gallons or 17676 galls/hour or 424224 galls/day. It soon mounts up.

The some interesting figures I've seen in Leans are for the following for March 1840

Sims 90" Poldice 12.5 spm ~ 913gpm
Levant 40" 3.1spm ~ 31.2gpm
United Mines Cardozo 90" 9.7spm ~ 676gpm
Consols Taylors 85" 9.1spm ~ 521gpm
Dolcoath New Sump 85" 6.75spm ~ 320gpm

or how about this one in February 1872
Mellanear 76" 13.4 spm with 19" pitwork removing 1277gpm.
Now thats what I call pumping with steam ... ๐Ÿ˜ฎ


If it can't be grown it has to be mined.
mikebee62
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14 years ago
Thanks for that Keith , now for the interesting bit , Have you any Idea , how much water was being pumped out of South Crofty ? , when it was pumping ??. Would be an interesting comparison :blink:
'Of cause its safe, just dont touch anything !!'
royfellows
14 years ago
Although the question has already been answered by Mr Agricola, being what I am I have to throw my ten pennyworth in.

Please take attention of Pumping Formulae, Oโ€™Donahue 1914 just uploaded which should be of great interest and worth the download.

I would like opportunity to make a few points.

First, it is not the depth of the shaft but the volume of water to be raised that dictates the power of the engine and size of pumps, rising mains etc.
Small mines with a small โ€˜makeโ€™ of water could have been kept in fork with a single bucket pump and say 6 inch rising main. This was very common in Wales and would have been driven by a waterwheel.

The more extensive and deeper mines typically of the West Country required a different type of system comprising a single bucket pump at the shaft sump, followed by a series of plunger lifts and an engine powerful enough to do the job.

As one progresses up the shaft the volume of water required to be lifted would increase because water would be draining from the side levels, so the size of the pumps and rising mains would increase in diameter. (Ref, inventory of Engine Shaft, Frongoch Mine, central Wales)

Now the thing to remember is that it is the weight of the pump rods that raises the water by displacement on a system of plunger pumps, and that access weight of rods would be balanced out by the balance bobs at each lift.
To go further. To displace a certain weight of water would require a rod that is heavier, but only by a margin sufficient to do the job otherwise the motion of the rods would be violent and also wasteful of fuel consumed by the engine.

Distribution of the balance bobs throughout the depth of the shaft is important otherwise if it where all at surface the surface balance bob and associated fulcrum would be carrying all of the weight and would certainly fail.

The whole subject is quite complex and I hope that the uploaded document is useful.

My avatar is a poor likeness.
spitfire
14 years ago
I would agree with much of which Mr Fellows has to say, but the depth and condition of the shaft must be a factor in working out the size of engine required. For instance:- a sixty inch engine may be quite adequate for a perpendicular shaft but if the shaft is crooked a much larger engine would be required to preform the same amount of work due to the extra frictional loss associated with tie back and fend off bobs as well as rollers on the underlie.
A sixty inch working in a perpendicular shaft could be pushed to nine or ten SPM where as in a crooked shaft anything above six SPM would be reckless
spitfire
Morlock
14 years ago
"royfellows" wrote:

Please take attention of Pumping Formulae, Oโ€™Donahue 1914 just uploaded which should be of great interest and worth the download.



Handy info. ๐Ÿ™‚
Thrutch
14 years ago
Regarding the Leawood Pump at Cromford: this is the sister engine, in that it was made by the same company, at around the same time as the engine at Mandale Mine, Lathkill Dale. The Mandale engine however had a ten inches bigger bore.
The Leawood Engine pumps four tons of water (approx. 800 gallons), per stroke, from river level to the canal (32') and is usually run at 3.5 - 4 strokes a minute. The maximum speed of the engine was believed to be seven strokes per minute but documentation discovered recently suggests, if accurate, that this speed was exceeded.
Speed of pumping depends on, among other things, the ballasting of the pump piston and condition of the pump valves.
Stoking efficiency depends on the quality of the coal, the weather conditions (the eighty feet tall chimney does not actually stand that high compared with the depth of the valley) and the skills of the stoker!
Visiting the Leawood Pump does provide an opportunity to see a Mine engine in action, even if it is not at a Mine, the pump side is different and it is not housed in a half engine house as the mine engines were but the whole, engine and pump are housed together.
Please check the website for steaming dates, usually the first weekend, Saturday and Sunday, of the month and the Sunday and Monday of Bank Holidays through Summer but there are changes and there is an additional Heritage Valley steaming.
Visitors will find that one of the Leawood team in particular is quite well informed about Mines and the connections between Mines and the Leawood Pump (which would not be there if it had not been for Mining activity).
Sorry to contradict the figures you gave owd git - please say hello next time you visit the Pump, it will be good to see you.
Roy Morton
14 years ago
The Levant engine figures seem somewhat low. At only 10 gallons per stroke it must have been a very small dia rising main. Hardly worth the coal!, you could kibble it out more economically. :blink:
"You Chinese think of everything!"
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agricola
14 years ago
The Levant rising main was only 6.5 inches diameter, down to 5 inches at the bottom. Comparitively a bone dry mine compared with say Vor, Consols, United etc.

You could just ask the miners to bring the water up in buckets when they leave at change of shift. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ
If it can't be grown it has to be mined.
Graigfawr
14 years ago
"As a typical example of a large Cornish engine, worki ng in the great heyday of duty, Davey's 80" may be instanced, built in 1832 for the Consolidated Mines by Copperhouse Foundry. This did a consistently high duty throughout the 1830's and after, being regarded for many years as a show engine of these great mines. The stroke in the cylinder was 11' 4" and with steam from three boilers, 37' x 6', was worked at one-fifth cut-off and 35-lbs. per sq. in. pressure. At 6 s.p.m. (regarded as the usual rate of working) it was rated at 145 h.p., increased to 240 h.p. at 10 s.p.m. The stroke in the shaft was 8' 9" and with its 12" pitwork it delivered 33 1/2 gallons at each stroke from 265 fathoms below adit. Such an engine used almost 1,500 tons of coal and 47,000 cu. ft. (292,810 gallons) of feed water per year." D.B.Barton 'The Cornish Beam Engine', 1969, p.90.
Graigfawr
14 years ago
"spitfire" wrote:

A sixty inch working in a perpendicular shaft could be pushed to nine or ten SPM where as in a crooked shaft anything above six SPM would be reckless



Again there's an interesting quote from Barton:

'The re-working of the notaby wet Mellanear Mine, near Hayle, in the early 1870's also occasioned some remarkable working speeds for large engines. The re-working commenced with a far from new 76" engine which during February 1872 averaged 13.4 s.p.m., raising 1,315 g.p.m. from 117 fathoms with 19" pitwork. For some days she worked at the extreme speed of 14.5, in a struggle that aroused the comment in the West Briton, "it will be no fault of the 76" cylinder engine at Mellanear, or of the engineers G.Eustice and Son, if the water gains a temporary victory there. Recently the piston rod was travelling at the rate of 280' a minute! At 14 strokes a minute the steam beats the water; at 13 strokes to the minute the strife is equally waged; if the engine stops for a shrt time - to pack the cylinder for instance - water has the advantage." ' (pp.102-105)
spitfire
14 years ago
A lot had to do with the individual engines. I can well remember Robinson's engine at Crofty doing 12 SPM and yet the 90" at Taylor's East Pool could never be coaxed above 8 SPM, despite many attempts this could never be rectified. When Grenville United closed the 50" at King Edward was said to be out-stroking the stamps engine!
spitfire
Thrutch
14 years ago
The other question, part answered above, is how much coal did these engines use and also, how was it transported and for how far? A constant stream of pack horse trains comes to mind, or horses and carts if the roads were good enough.

At the Leawood pump, running for five hours a day, at half speed, around one ton of coal is used/per day, This includes warming up and it is usually possible to stop stoking around 15 -30 minutes before shutting down - all this with a fairly efficient boiler. Or to put it another way it works out at around a wheelbarrow full every fifteen minutes while the engine is working.

But what of an engine working faster, harder and for twenty four hours/day?
agricola
14 years ago
I will dig some figures for the coal consumption for a number of engines - from what I remember this makes interesting reading, along with the water consumption. :smartass:
If it can't be grown it has to be mined.
Thrutch
14 years ago
The other consumable substance would oil, which would not come from where it does currently. Easy enough to order steam oil and other lubricating oils now but what would be used from two hundred and more years ago? Wouldpart of the answer be a bit non-PC now?

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