Quite right PWhole - don't let anyone make you feel guilty about it. :thumbsup:

No guilt there that's for sure. It stinks. Wrong time. Wrong mood. Wrong money. End of.

What he said. It seems so wrong at a time when we are spiralling into the worst economic crisis since the late 1920s. When thousands of people are loosing their livelihoods it seems almost obscene to crow about using a loophole to subsidise your hobby.

Well I am losing my livelihood, as I pointed out above - I can't work unless it's at home, and there's not much of that kind of work these days - I just finished my last home job. I earn most of my money from rope-access, and the 16-week job I was on has been canned until further notice after only 4 weeks, so I'm screwed - we can't share accommodation, vans or work facilities, and we can hardly work together effectively, especially if there's a rescue. IRATA thankfully are extending the cards, but this could go on for months and I could easily run out of money before it starts again. So 'homeless' is far more likely than 'holiday home'. Have you seen the TSG's hut? If that's a holiday home then I must be in a playboy's penthouse apartment right now.

But I don't consider this funding a 'loophole', and I'm certainly not crowing about getting it, and I can't see where I have been crowing. What defines a hobby anyway? Not getting paid? Volunteer workers don't get paid either, but they can usually afford to be volunteers or they wouldn't do it. If we'd applied for and won Lottery funding instead would that be morally OK? That fund came from 'donations' from the public who were dreaming of winning a lot of money, and someone probably did. Is that OK? After all, they may have only put £2 in, when someone else paid £50 and won nothing. It's not fair!

All charities have seen a massive drop in donations since the lockdown started, and yet the public managed to find £30 million in one week for the NHS, via that old guy walking around his garden - impressive for him, but £30 million? Why? The NHS is already funded - that money could have gone to the regular charities instead who really need it. I'm not dissing anyone there for donating, but we are clearly not short of money.

It's a moral maze out there, and I doubt any of us feel very sure about how we feel about anything anymore. But I don't feel guilty for this, as I know how much 'work' we do via the club for nothing (at a loss), as opposed to the 'hobby', which also runs at a loss, predictably.

This thread has become a bit tetchy, the OP's comment about funding seems quite a reasonable avenue for clubs to pursue. If you feel the need to vent spleen etc have a beef at second home owners who have reclassified their spare (personal) property as holiday lets. This seems to be happening in Cornwall;

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2020-04-27/owners-of-holiday-lets-in-cornwall-have-claimed-50m-of-government-coronavirus-grants/ 

It is probably also the case in Derbyshire and elsewhere.

Yours most humbly :flowers:

Jim

I have mixed feelings on this, I imagine supporting caving club huts wasn't uppermost in the thoughts of those devising the scheme but then again perhaps the general notion of preserving the more fragile elements of our way of life perhaps was.

I'd say it was definitely worth bringing to peoples attention as an option, if you're running a marginal operation and this would help you I'd say go for it, clubs and societies are a part of our culture and identity and I think it's reasonable a (relatively in the grand scheme of things) small amount being diverted to try and ensure we have some of these life enriching things to get back to.

If on the other hand you have adequate reserves and are confident of weathering the storm and would just be using this to swell already bulging coffers then maybe don't apply (or at least don't post on the internet that you have :lol:)

From a outside point of veiw , all the mines here in the East Midlands you are not aloud in sadly as the land owners have burried/grilled these, so we have to travel normaly 2-4 hours to join clubs like all of yours for trips ,we would be devastated if these clubs did not exist after this so in my opinion it is crucial that all of you if you need the funding take it that is what it is their for ! Me and my mates who i do mines /caves with are itching to get back out meet up with more groups so please don’t go anywhere !!

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This thread has become a bit tetchy, the OP's comment about funding seems quite a reasonable avenue for clubs to pursue. If you feel the need to vent spleen etc have a beef at second home owners who have reclassified their spare (personal) property as holiday lets. This seems to be happening in Cornwall;

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2020-04-27/owners-of-holiday-lets-in-cornwall-have-claimed-50m-of-government-coronavirus-grants/ 

It is probably also the case in Derbyshire and elsewhere.

Yours most humbly :flowers:

Jim

As someone on a low income living in Cornwall don't get me started on second home owners :curse::curse::curse:

This thread has become a bit tetchy, the OP's comment about funding seems quite a reasonable avenue for clubs to pursue. If you feel the need to vent spleen etc have a beef at second home owners who have reclassified their spare (personal) property as holiday lets. This seems to be happening in Cornwall;

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2020-04-27/owners-of-holiday-lets-in-cornwall-have-claimed-50m-of-government-coronavirus-grants/ 

It is probably also the case in Derbyshire and elsewhere.

Yours most humbly :flowers:

Jim

As someone on a low income living in Cornwall don't get me started on second home owners :curse::curse::curse:

Aside from the negative impact on the local community I've never understood the appeal, very rarely I holiday in exactly the same place twice......

I'm sorry I started this now. I didn't realise how much hate there was in the mine and cave community.
And I fail to see the relevance of a club organised social event, that was paid for by the participants, to this discussion.

All I wanted to do was raise awareness to anybody representing those clubs that weren't aware of this particular government lifeline.
Clubs are specifically listed on the eligability list that has been published, as are hostels. This isn't a loophole it is a legitimate grant. The list is very long and has been aimed at all sorts of businesses and organisations that are struggling due to the government taking away their income source, whilst leaving them with bills to pay.

Presumably you won't object that clubs with premesis continue to pay their corporation tax that is levied on any proft that they might make from the business side of their hostels?

I understand that people are struggling, I am too. As a self employed person I will get no help with my bills until some time in June, when I may be able to claim some help. These are unprecedented times and I agree the government's responce has been less than complete, but just because somebody else is getting help shouldn't make those that aren't start hating them, if anything they should be taking the government to task.

This whole situation has shown that society is actually quite a nasty thing with all the hate going around on the internet at the moment. I thought the underground community might be exempt from it, but it seems not...

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Currently in my lunch break from working in the accounts department of a company which has been directly affected by this. My job is to pull in the money to ensure that there is still a business with which to claim furlough for those most important to running a business, the employees.

Irrespective of that, I was looking at some of the minutes last night as our secretary must be bored at home and has uploaded some gems from ‘95.

The long and short of it, the club was skint, the insurer was asking the fire brigade to come out and check the safety of the hut before they would even take our money.

In the intervening 25 years the club/business or whatever you want to call it has survived. Has paid its council rates, paid the insurers for 25 years since those minutes. At present insurance for the building stands at a sizeable chunk. If I simply say that the amount that has been claimed for has probably been covered by the tax from payments to the insurers, council, gas, water and electricity. Not to mention the small businesses we have in to do work.

We don’t pay for booze and hookers out of the revenue we make, and have no idea the next time we will be able to have paying guests in or whether that will even be this year.

Les, please don't regret posting this. Your latest comments are well-reasoned and I hope everybody reads them with an open mind. And if after reading it you still don't agree with the idea, at least disagree respectfully.

Les, please don't regret posting this. Your latest comments are well-reasoned and I hope everybody reads them with an open mind. And if after reading it you still don't agree with the idea, at least disagree respectfully.

Seconded.
I have passed your post along.
PDMHS have a hut (Magpie Mine) that still needs paying for and we do employ staff for the museum and Temple mine.

Seconded.
I have passed your post along.
PDMHS have a hut (Magpie Mine) that still needs paying for and we do employ staff for the museum and Temple mine.

I resisted making that additional point in the hope that someone else would, so thank you 😉

We've already applied for the grants we're eligible for in relation to the Mining Museum, including for the staff furlough, and PDMHS will be paying the museum staff the remaining 20% of their salaries. Unlike a certain major pub chain (which I will never drink in again), we value and support our employees...

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Thanks Les, just messaged Peter Jackson regarding Nenthead Mines Conservation Society's possible eligibility for a grant has we get income from the bunk rooms at the Assay House. Doesn't cost anything to enquire.

The number of clubs with huts is very small. Possibly 20 or 30 at most. I hardly think it is going to drain the government's coffers compared with the number of small businesses that need help as well.

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20-30 huts... So its ok to misspend around £300,000 of tax payers money on the hobby of a very few. I really should try and find a way of trickling it my way.

It feels like the interpretation of Gov aid of some here is not to help real businesses and employees but saving themselves from having to contribute to their own pastime. Using ‘Free money for clubs with huts’ as the heading sort of gives it away.

By the by, further up someone used the word ‘hate’ to describe those airing a reflective opinion to their own. Hate? Really? Using such language is more likely to raise the temperature than anything else I’ve read.

I'm sorry I started this now. I didn't realise how much hate there was in the mine and cave community.

Hate is a strong word. I don't see any hate in this thread. What I do see is a robust debate and that is no bad thing.

Love, light and peace :flowers::flowers::flowers::flowers:

The most I can see is dismissive resentment, but sort of understandable.

The most I can see is dismissive resentment, but sort of understandable.

I'm Disappointed. I was aiming for 'strong objection and very understandable'. 😉 :lol:

It's only my perception - others might detect something else. It's misperceptions online that cause more problems than almost anything else!