Mr Mike
9 years ago
I know Roy, just being silly.
Mr Mike www.mineexplorer.org.uk
royfellows
9 years ago
"Peter Burgess" wrote:

"royfellows" wrote:

What about this for a new catchphrase, "The Empire of Free Access"
Kinda got a ring to it hasn't it?



I reckon the one thing caving/mine-exploring doesn't need right now is another bloody crusade. It leads to far too many high horses and people wearing blinkers.



Its you mentioned crusades Peter.
It was intended as a joke, obviously you didn't realise that.

Maybe you take life too seriously.
My avatar is a poor likeness.
Peter Burgess
9 years ago
Fair do's, Roy. Taking life seriously is infectious. Can't think where I caught it from.
Peter Burgess
9 years ago
"Blober" wrote:

A wild notion, how about going underground? :lol::lol:

That's for tonight, meanwhile there are ginger nuts to bake for post-dig nosh.
royfellows
9 years ago
"Peter Burgess" wrote:

Fair do's, Roy. Taking life seriously is infectious. Can't think where I caught it from.



I looked for 'buy you a pint' emoticon but failed find one, but the thought was there.
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droid
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9 years ago
'Taking things seriously' seems to be a major problem with UKC.

Caving at least is mainly a recreational pursuit: people do it because they enjoy it. Seems to me that some people regard Caving at least (less so with mine exploration) as a way of gaining prestige and power within the various caving organisations.

The situation where someone might want to organise easy hassle-free access to the underground seems beyond them.

It's a very sad situation.
royfellows
9 years ago
That's an interesting perspective Dave. I have seen the same kind of 'blindness' elsewhere.

Conversation

I was describing on of my breakthroughs to someone.

"Did you find any mineral" I was asked.

"No there isn't any minerals in there"

"Go on, I will pay you for it"

"No there isn't any minerals"

"I will pay you good price for it"

Ah well, just give up.
:lol:


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RAMPAGE
9 years ago
"royfellows" wrote:

I fairness, it was not CMT which was being criticized on the UKC forum, it was Cave Access Ltd, and this was because its not a membership organisation and therefore being seen by one or two individuals as undemocratic.

A funny sort of slant on this is that its OK for a private company to purchase land with mines or caves and become the 'landowner', but not a private company to be an ACB.
CMT is of course landowner and ACB.



I found the whole thing rather staggering.

Go Below is a Ltd company which is effectively land owner *and* the ACB for two slate mines here. Not really any different to CAL, just less mines. Works fine, people are happy with the system. Its not democratic as such but more of a benign dictatorship.

It's all smooth and relaxed though, and I'd like to think it shows that it really can work great so long as those who are in charge are the "right sort".

Knowing personally all those involved in CAL, as I do, I can truly say that the right sort are at the helm and this pleases me greatly. Hats off to you gentlemen :thumbsup:
Beneath my steely exterior beats the heart of a dashing hero
Daggers
9 years ago
"RAMPAGE" wrote:

"royfellows" wrote:

I fairness, it was not CMT which was being criticized on the UKC forum, it was Cave Access Ltd, and this was because its not a membership organisation and therefore being seen by one or two individuals as undemocratic.

A funny sort of slant on this is that its OK for a private company to purchase land with mines or caves and become the 'landowner', but not a private company to be an ACB.
CMT is of course landowner and ACB.



I found the whole thing rather staggering.

Go Below is a Ltd company which is effectively land owner *and* the ACB for two slate mines here. Not really any different to CAL, just less mines. Works fine, people are happy with the system. Its not democratic as such but more of a benign dictatorship.

It's all smooth and relaxed though, and I'd like to think it shows that it really can work great so long as those who are in charge are the "right sort".

Knowing personally all those involved in CAL, as I do, I can truly say that the right sort are at the helm and this pleases me greatly. Hats off to you gentlemen :thumbsup:



One of the main reasons I quit caving for mine exploring was due to Miles, his knowledge and expertise of the mines in the area around Betws.

I say congrats to both companies CAL Go Below and Cambrian Mines Trust as they have done a wonderful job of bringing open and free access to a lot of mines that would have otherwise remained locked, blocked or off limits unless you are a member of the elite.

:thumbsup:
Daggers
droid
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9 years ago
And that to me is the main difference between the caving and mine exploration worlds.

we seem to be able to organise relatively free access without the interminable 'Committee' process that cavers seem to love (?) so much.

There's a refreshing altruism in the mine world.
Peter Burgess
9 years ago
"droid" wrote:

And that to me is the main difference between the caving and mine exploration worlds.

we seem to be able to organise relatively free access without the interminable 'Committee' process that cavers seem to love (?) so much.

There's a refreshing altruism in the mine world.

I would go along with that - the annual NAMHO event being the prime example. It's a big effort to organise and is usually done at club level for the benefit of everyone else. I can't really think on an equivalent in the caving club world.
dtyson
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9 years ago
"Peter Burgess" wrote:

would go along with that - the annual NAMHO event being the prime example. It's a big effort to organise and is usually done at club level for the benefit of everyone else. I can't really think on an equivalent in the caving club world.


I guess "Hidden Earth" would be the equivalent. That moves around a bit, but nothing as wide ranging as NAHMO. Its a bit bigger than most NAMHO events and generally runs very smoothly thanks to the organisation skills of Les Williams and his wife with 'a bit help' on the side. This year Hidden Earth has been renamed Eurospelio 2106 which is a lot bigger and international, plus it lasts a week with extra events in various locations after the main event.

Les & co are helping organise it so it should be a superb event. Some of the extra events include trips at Nenthead...

Dave
Peter Burgess
9 years ago
In a way, perhaps. But HE is not really organised at club level - it's roughly the same bunch of cavers each year - and a good job they do as well. NAMHO events really are down to the locals each year.
tiger99
9 years ago
I find it disappointing that there are mine explorers and cave explorers, and seemingly a few sewer explorers too. When I was younger and fitter, any hole in the ground was fair game, whether natural or man-made (but never sewers!), and I would never have thought that various semi-opposing factions, some political and others just wanting their fun, would arise. I was a bit biased towards mines because the only subterranea within easy reach (10 to 20 minutes by bicycle) with no apparent access restrictions were the Blairlogie Copper Mines and the Craigend Lime Works.

On holiday of course there were invariably sea caves, a few of which I now know to be mines. Then I got a car, and Leadhills/Wanlockhead, except in the grouse season, was accessible, amongst other things, under the old regime.

What would be good would be for all interested parties to be pulling in the same direction with regard to access, which in many cases could be more liberal. But the law needs to exempt landowners from the consequences of careless explorers having accidents, and from damage due to mindless vandalism etc. It just isn't fair that some poor farmer might be sued for millions in damages if an idiot is killed underground in his land.

I don't know how well the right to roam law is working in Scotland. Last I heard a particularly obnoxious landowner deservedly lost in court and certain footpaths on his land are now available. The law does extend to rivers etc (not fish of course) so you can, for example, mostly use canoes on the rivers without hindrance. But I have no idea what the law might say about underground activities.

The only thing that would work properly in England is a well-thought-out and fair law which protected the interests of all parties. If enough people of all persuasions pulled together and lobbied their MPs we might just get that. We are surely talking of maybe 100k people with underground interests?
droid
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9 years ago
"tiger99" wrote:


We are surely talking of maybe 100k people with underground interests?



I rather doubt that....
royfellows
9 years ago
"tiger99" wrote:


But the law needs to exempt landowners from the consequences of careless explorers having accidents, and from damage due to mindless vandalism etc. It just isn't fair that some poor farmer might be sued for millions in damages if an idiot is killed underground in his land.



Law in this country in made by parliament and the courts and some Court of Appeal judgements have turned the tide somewhat. (see note)
Whether or not this starting to bleed through I don't know, but the situation has somewhat eased. We now have official access to mines which at one time would have invoked prosecution.
Personally, I see cause for optimism.

(note)
Tomlinson v Congleton BC 2003
Harvey v Plymouth City Council 2010


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