Just a heads up on this one, its becoming quite entertaining and worth reading through.

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=20354.msg261372;topicseen#new 

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Cor blimey.

What is it with UK caving that makes your brain begin to shut down? :lol:

At any rate, CAL is doing a great job in my opinion. Especially having opened up access to some places that seemed notoriously hard to get access to (Rhiwbach)

Keep it up :thumbsup:

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I do find access related threads on UKC particularly tedious.

Some folk on there would find a reason to fall out with their own shadow.
Which is why I very rarely post there now.

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Speaking as someone with no personal axe to grind beyond a huge interest in exploring as many places underground as I possibly can before my knees give up completely ....
AND having a personal hatred of the whole "Club/Clique" empire building thang ....

I have huge reservations when "People" have a vested interest in organising access to places for personal/commercial gain ...
I fully understand that those "people" potentially invest a huge amount of time AND money in making places accessible and safe etc BUT by that nature there is the potential for conflicts to occur .

All that said the whole CAL agreement is an absolute credit to those involved ...
A Painless AND selfless organisation of access for folks interested in our rich industrial heritage with very few (unavoidable ) strings attached allowing access to places previously off limits.

Reading some of the stuff over on UKC .....it makes me shiver just how blinkered SOME folks can be .

Some folk on there would find a reason to fall out with their own shadow.

:lol::lol::lol:

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I no longer have the time to keep up with UKC and tend to only read this site now. I certainly can't be bothered to read all 4 pages although I did scan enough to get the drift.

All I have to say on this is that I have in recent years visited several of the mines where access is arranged through CAL & the Cwmystwyth body and I have enjoyed myself immensely. Since it is very likely I wouldn't have made these trips without some sort of official access in place I think the whole arrangement is rather splendid!

Many thanks to all involved :flowers::thumbup:

surprisingly there is a "BOGRAT" on that forum and its not me, what's the chances of 2 people using the same name, good job I never go on that site. 😢

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surprisingly there is a "BOGRAT" on that forum and its not me, what's the chances of 2 people using the same name, good job I never go on that site. ;(

I would change your username on here such as "Bograt at aditnow", given the level of bickering, personal insults, and other nonsense perpetrated on UKC. I post on there but generally dont get it too bad, also my name is my name so everyone knows who I am.

I was thinking:

Q: "How many cavers would it take to change a light bulb"
A: Light bulb would never get changed as they would never agree on who would be have control of the switch.

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Q: "How many cavers would it take to change a light bulb"
A: Light bulb would never get changed as they would never agree on who would have control of the switch.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Left UKC a long time ago after they accused me of being a vandal, for taking pictures of some soda straws in a protected site, and threatened to prosecute me.

Needless to say we did not destroy anything and the woman who caused all the fuss had never actually been in the said location, but was an expert on it's content.

Caving Nazis, UKC is where all the self appointed caving police go because they are not welcome anywhere else.

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Needless to say we did not destroy anything and the woman who caused all the fuss had never actually been in the said location, but was an expert on it's content.

Now isn't that just typical, I wonder how many of the people on the UKC thread who call for 'democracy' in CAL actually use the mines we control.

Nice seeing you in Cwmystwyth the other day and thanks to you and your group for carrying stuff for me in the job is now virtually finished. I was in the until 19.15 Sunday and got home knackered. I will be glad to give it a rest for while.

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Needless to say we did not destroy anything and the woman who caused all the fuss had never actually been in the said location, but was an expert on it's content.

Now isn't that just typical, I wonder how many of the people on the UKC thread who call for 'democracy' in CAL actually use the mines we control.

Nice seeing you in Cwmystwyth the other day and thanks to you and your group for carrying stuff for me in the job is now virtually finished. I was in the until 19.15 Sunday and got home knackered. I will be glad to give it a rest for while.

My pleasure Roy always will to help a fellow explorer.

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surprisingly there is a "BOGRAT" on that forum and its not me, what's the chances of 2 people using the same name, good job I never go on that site. ;(

I would change your username on here such as "Bograt at aditnow", given the level of bickering, personal insults, and other nonsense perpetrated on UKC. I post on there but generally dont get it too bad, also my name is my name so everyone knows who I am.

I was thinking:

Q: "How many cavers would it take to change a light bulb"
A: Light bulb would never get changed as they would never agree on who would be have control of the switch.

It constantly amazes me how threads on UKC regularly degenerate into b*llocks. Compare this with AN which is a civilised place where we can discuss issues without resorting to petty bickering. Does this merely reflect the different cultures of UKC and AN or does it reflect more significant differences between cavers and mine explorers?

Having had a foot in both camps my perspective is that the caving scene is dominated by clubs and committees whereas the mine exploration scene tends to be more free booting and based on smaller less formal groups. Any activity based on formal structures and committees will attract people who like that sort of thing and enjoy playing politics for the sake of playing politics. This leads to ego tripping and empire building which contaminates the whole culture as reflected on the CAL discussion on UKC. If that discussion were started on AN I can't help feeling that the attitude would be "some kind souls have sorted out legit access to problematical sites - yay - lets enjoy it - end of discussion".

Its possible that mine exploration has only recently come in from the cold so to speak. We have been doing it for years but in many cases where we really shouldn't, and still do for that matter. While caving as a sport has been going since , well, you tell me, and as such tends to be more 'organised'.

There is also the conservation issue, as I pointed out on the thread, with most metal mines conservation is remedial intervention, while with caves its trying to keep out vandals and minimize the adverse effect of human footfall.

I also think that there is nowadays in most things a tendency for opinions to become polarized, so in caving circles we have a polarization between the 'free access everywhere' and 'gate everything'

Of course this does not go all the way to explain the continual bickering.
Its a shame it has to be that way.

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Had a quick look and there seems lots of petty squabbling going on, also feels like there is a hidden agenda in the argument - an elephant in the room if you will.
I for one am grateful for the work put into obtaining and keeping access to the old mines we enjoy.
Thanks to Mr Fellows and all the rest

surprisingly there is a "BOGRAT" on that forum and its not me, what's the chances of 2 people using the same name, good job I never go on that site. ;(

I am acquainted with the gentleman(?) who bears this name in 'The Other House', he has carried the title for over 40years and is well known by it by most of the more mature Peak District underground fraternity, who are less likely to know his 'real' name.;)

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Its possible that mine exploration has only recently come in from the cold so to speak. We have been doing it for years but in many cases where we really shouldn't, and still do for that matter. While caving as a sport has been going since , well, you tell me, and as such tends to be more 'organised'.

There is also the conservation issue, as I pointed out on the thread, with most metal mines conservation is remedial intervention, while with caves its trying to keep out vandals and minimize the adverse effect of human footfall.

I also think that there is nowadays in most things a tendency for opinions to become polarized, so in caving circles we have a polarization between the 'free access everywhere' and 'gate everything'

Of course this does not go all the way to explain the continual bickering.b
Its a shame it has to be that way.

I dont think I could have said it better myself.

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😮 :surrender: :lol:

Keep up the good work Roy, I'm retiring next week so may, at last, have time to explore some of the holes you've made accessible to us :thumbsup:

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To be fair to UKC, most of the complaints about the soda-straws did mostly come from one person, not the forum itself, and that person was the DCA Conservation Officer at the time - who has subsequently died. And it was a trespass beyond a locked gate into a private facility. Not criticising that personally, as it wasn't public knowledge, but some folks will always have a beef about that sort of thing if they do find it wrong.

Agreed, many of the UKC discussions degenerate into bickering, but as someone who frequents both 'camps', and genuinely has no preference between caves and mines in terms of what I do (and it's pointless in Castleton anyway), I have to keep in touch with both. None of the cavers I know or work with are ever part of the bickering, which is nearly always just about one topic, and it's usually the same people arguing, so it's hardly the end of the world.