tiger99
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10 years ago
Prompted by the discussion about the sinkhole in Manchester, with a suspected shaft under a B&Q etc, I remembered something that I spotted a while back.

The Stadium of Light in Sunderland and/or the adjacent Sunderland Aquatic Centre are atop some of the supposedly deepest shafts in the UK. I don't have the exact shaft coordinates, just estimating from old maps, and what I saw while the site was being cleared.

A small electricity substation in Crossford, Fife is atop a probably shallow air shaft. Could cause interesting problems if the transformer, on its small concrete base, disappeared down the shaft.

There seems to be, according to Google Earth, a bus workshop atop the shaft at the Carbrook part of Plean Colliery. There is a precast concrete works at the site of the main shafts but I am not sure exactly where they were so don't know if they have been actually built over. But not far away, there is a chipboard factory atop Bannockburn 1 & 2 shafts, and a cattle market perilously close to Polmaise 1 & 2 shafts, with the possibility of something nasty happening in the car park. Shaft fill does settle...
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We have had sink holes local to me as of now (Hemel Hempstead) due to chalk mining which had long been forgotten. Also in Kincardine (Fife) where my parents used to live, both under roads but very close to housing. Two sites in the east of Edinburgh, where a couple of streets of council housing and (separate location) part of a new Barratt estate had to be demolished. There have been more, discussed on this forum in many cases.

Property transactions in specified mining areas need a Coal Board (or their successors) report,but that would have been of no use in these cases, or indeed probably Manchester, because it would only report coal workings, not limestone etc. But in at least the Edinburgh cases a perusal of old OS maps would have been enough to suspect problems.

There are lots of mine workings not in any official records. Stirling Council were, and probably still are, intent on creating a new housing estate at Durrieshill. Well, there may be no records of mining, but the old maps and a surface examination say otherwise, and fairly shallow.....

Limestone workings, as we all know because of the opportunities they provide us, tend to be very extensive and fairly shallow. Add in acidic rainwater, disintegrating timbers, possible pillar robbing, etc, and they provide ample opportunity for causing sinkholes.

It seems to me that the legal requirement for a proper mining report needs to be extended to cover all mining areas, not just those where coal was mined. I can see quite a lot of remunerative work for suitably qualified members of this forum, either researching mining records or in some cases carrying out physical inspections underground.

The daft thing is that the localities which need a coal mining report are just defined by the name of the town or village, not properly mapped. So when my late mother bought her flat in Menstrie she had to pay the fee for the mining report, even though the lawyer knew that there had been no mining, or any possibility of any, under the site. It was precisely on the Ochil Fault, which duly obliged by providing a very minor quake, as it does from time to time. But because of that fault, the coal basin was very shallow at the edge and the seams were thinned out to almost nothing, as well as being well cooked. The nearest mining was at least half a mile away.

What is under buildings in your area? Any more stadiums sitting atop deep shafts? Might be a good way of getting rid of football hooligans...


J25GTi
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10 years ago
The village I live in is ontop of a mine, the council estate is all on the move, regular shaft collapses etc....

Not really surprising when youre in cornwall!
Tamarmole
10 years ago
"J25GTi" wrote:

The village I live in is ontop of a mine, the council estate is all on the move, regular shaft collapses etc....

Not really surprising when youre in cornwall!



To be brutally honest it can only improve Gunnislake.
J25GTi
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10 years ago
"Tamarmole" wrote:

"J25GTi" wrote:

The village I live in is ontop of a mine, the council estate is all on the move, regular shaft collapses etc....

Not really surprising when youre in cornwall!



To be brutally honest it can only improve Gunnislake.



100% agree with you there. I've considered doing the world a favour and opening up that adit many times after seeing some of the scum that live there!!!!
tiger99
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10 years ago
I would have thought that the danger was less acute with hard rock where only narrow mineral veins have been mined, such as at Gunnislake. Removal of bulk materials in approximately horizontal strata, such as coal, limestone, potash or salt, usually surrounded by weak or fractured low-grade rock, would be worse, surely?

As for the inhabitants of Gunnislake, they were ok when I was last there, in 1963. I was thinking of another visit, but maybe I should go somewhere quite different instead. Perranporth perhaps. Plenty of interesting holes in the cliffs there.
J25GTi
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10 years ago
"tiger99" wrote:

I would have thought that the danger was less acute with hard rock where only narrow mineral veins have been mined, such as at Gunnislake. Removal of bulk materials in approximately horizontal strata, such as coal, limestone, potash or salt, usually surrounded by weak or fractured low-grade rock, would be worse, surely?

As for the inhabitants of Gunnislake, they were ok when I was last there, in 1963. I was thinking of another visit, but maybe I should go somewhere quite different instead. Perranporth perhaps. Plenty of interesting holes in the cliffs there.



That's like 52 years ago, a lot changes in half a century....p:lol:
Tamarmole
10 years ago
I have heard it said of Gunnislake that those with get up and go got and went in the 1890s /early 1900s when mining died leaving only the useless and the feckless behind. Those who remained spent the following century or so interbreeding with each other with predictable results.

As to the truth or otherwise of this I could not possibly comment.
tiger99
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10 years ago
That really does need some action, preferably clearing out and re-timbering the adit. If the workings were made safe, they could possibly recoup costs by making it a tourist attraction, assuming that there are interesting things underground. But small minds at the top do not seem to think of things like that.

Meanwhile, at Leadhills the signs warning of possible flash floods (due to a potential blowout, but they don't say that) are still there, and the depth gauge on the Susannah shaft was derelict last time I was there....

I wonder where else nasty hydraulic problems are building up, ready to cause disaster? There are many places where capped shafts in relatively low ground may be pressurised by the ingress of water from workings in higher ground. Thinking mostly of coal mines here. A concrete shaft cap suddenly becoming airborne atop a column of water is not exactly safe. Fortunately many of those will go gently, due to very slow flow rate and pressure build-up, but after torrential rain it is conceivable that the inflow rate into old workings could be sufficiently high for it to happen.

I am thinking that the Coal Authority needs to be expanded to be the Old Mines and Underground Workings Authority, so there are competent people in charge of everything that matters, with one comprehensive set of records. Local authorities generally don't have the capability, and it is unfair to expect landowners to do so.
NewStuff
10 years ago
"tiger99" wrote:

I am thinking that the Coal Authority needs to be expanded to be the Old Mines and Underground Workings Authority, so there are competent people in charge of everything that matters, with one comprehensive set of records. Local authorities generally don't have the capability, and it is unfair to expect landowners to do so.



I'll assume you haven't had any dealings with them. Our pastime would probably be almost impossible after a few years.
Searching for the ever elusive Underground Titty Bar.

DDDWH CC
Tony Blair
10 years ago
It will be interesting to see how the coal authority changes it's remit with the ongoing and final looking demise of UK Coal. They do have a commercial arm involved in consultancy and activities relating to coal mines. How easy this would be to facilitate the inclusion of everything else is a matter of a few things.

Would it be worth it?

Who would buy these products/services?

Would potential customers likely change allegiance to the COAL board for their NON-COAL "stuff"?

Is there already a network of firms/clients in place already?

Do the existing firms have access to information which would be problematic for the coal board to attain, in order to provide the same level of service as existing firms?

Is the coal board itself likely to be absorbed by a larger entity, for instance one of Landmarc's arms.

Is it possible that other firms would sell their data archives (probably GIS or similar) to the Coal Authority, facilitating the creation of a UK abandoned mines authority?

What services would this new firm produce? Mining searches, site investigations, shaft capping, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Maybe the whole thing would be nationalised if Corbyn gets a go on the tiller.

I'd say it was more likely that one of the leading mining consultancies took on the remit of dealing with coal workings, rather than the other way around. It would be interesting to ponder how this could happen. Whether the CA, dying on it's feet, would be sold off for a peppercorn price, or whether there would be a bidding war, etc.

We live in interesting times.

Personally, if I was about to buy a house in St Day, I would rather someone local informed me about it than the bloody coal board! Some of the attempts by national firms to undertake mining searches results in the most bizarre diagrams!
rufenig
10 years ago
"Tony Blair" wrote:

It will be interesting to see how the coal authority changes it's remit with the ongoing and final looking demise of UK Coal. They do have a commercial arm involved in consultancy and activities relating to coal mines. How easy this would be to facilitate the inclusion of everything else is a matter of a few things.



I know that D.E.F.R.A. in managing a property that they own which has "underground" structures went straight to the Coal authority as "experts" for advice on allowing (or refusing!) access.
The Coal authority do not seem to believe that anyone else has knowledge of underground and they are happy to rule on anything, not just coal. :smartass:
exspelio
10 years ago
I seem to recall the Coal Board being the main advisor on the Channel Tunnel, all very well until one of the Dosco type tunnel borers hit a bit of real rock and required an industrial dentist to straighten its teeth.::)
Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.
exspelio
10 years ago
BACK ON TOPIC----I remember my first paid full time job was as a 'junior metallurgical chemist', at a newly established works on the site of a closed down colliery, I knew the pit when it was working and was more than surprised to discover they had set up the Arc Furnace in a convenient hollow in the ground--- directly above the main winding shaft::o
During the time I was working there I was waiting for the disaster to happen (our labs where a safe distance away) ---it never happened.-:flowers:
If someone can supply a plan of buildings at Cotes Park colliery, I think I could identify which ones where used by Garnham, Harris and Elton, steel smelters, for various purposes. -
Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.
Trewillan
10 years ago
"exspelio" wrote:

I seem to recall the Coal Board being the main advisor on the Channel Tunnel, all very well until one of the Dosco type tunnel borers hit a bit of real rock and required an industrial dentist to straighten its teeth.::)



Excuse me, but I can smell bullshit.
Buckhill
10 years ago
"exspelio" wrote:

I seem to recall the Coal Board being the main advisor on the Channel Tunnel, all very well until one of the Dosco type tunnel borers hit a bit of real rock and required an industrial dentist to straighten its teeth.::)



I don't think the Doscos would have found much to bother them in the Channel Tunnel. From what I was told (by a contractor who drove one) they were using Mk2Bs. When he came to us we were driving drifts with the same machine (and an MD1100) which passed through a few beds of quartzitic sandstone - wore the (easily changeable) picks down fairly quickly but bent nowt.

And don't confuse the CA with the NCB/BC. The advisors to the Channel Tunnel would have been BC mining engineers. The CA nowadays seems more civil service - I was a bit surprised to find a former, but very recently so, LA housing manager investigating a probable mining related "sinkhole" in the main road outside my house a few years ago.
somersetminer
10 years ago
"Tony Blair" wrote:

It will be interesting to see how the coal authority changes it's remit with the ongoing and final looking demise of UK Coal. They do have a commercial arm involved in consultancy and activities relating to coal mines. How easy this would be to facilitate the inclusion of everything else is a matter of a few things.



The Coal Authority is scaled to suit the proportion of coal mining that is active in this country, hence a small department anyway! Aberpergwm and the few other drift mines may come back and CA has enough monitoring/inspection work to keep them busy with the pumping schemes set up at closed collieries that required it (theres more than you would think) and of course Wheal Jane :lol:
I think the mining record side would be enough to keep them going anyway, the fees are pretty steep depending on whos asking for them! I think Wardells do a bit of that for coal workings but their main remit is metal/non coal.
There certainly wont be an overarching all inclusive 'bureau of mines' created, no funds for that and the CA couldnt handle it.
tiger99
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9 years ago
Just found another potentially nasty one, and I was not even looking. I was reading up on something I saw in a book, the explosion at Victoria pit, Nitshill, on 15 March 1851, and found that the shaft used for ventilation upcast, and very involved in the explosion, the old Freetrader Pit, is now actually under a house in Craigbank Drive, parallel to Nitshill Road.

http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/27.html 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19&lat=55.8155&lon=-4.3632&layers=168 

It is a row of shops with flats above, possibly 1960s vintage. I wonder what the Coal Authority report said? I don't know how well a shaft filling, possibly not very well done, would block emissions of methane in the long term. If we hear that the Amarilla Cafe, or possibly Newman Opticians or Martins Quality Butchers has blown up we will know why.

I may have a browse around the Glasgow area, to see if there are any more problematic buildings sitting right over shafts. It is quite easy nowadays thanks to the NLS web site, but some shafts were not mapped, or covered over before the available maps were surveyed, so no such check is infallible.
Vanoord
9 years ago
I believe I'm on the joint arisings of Dinorwic slate mine and Parys Mountain...
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
Dolcoathguy
9 years ago
An elvan dyke and Dolcoath.

Is it safe to come out of the bunker yet?
lipsi
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9 years ago
Have you ever had a close look at what's under Edinburgh Airport runway? Check out Scottish Oil Shale museum for the underground workings. Maybe that's why the tram route wasn't extended to the airport, which would have made sense.
Where there's a mine or a hole in the ground.
That's where I'm heading for that's where I'm bound
So follow me down Cousin Jack
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