Having mixed opinions from cavers/climbers.which is best for caving cowstails? Screw or wire gates??



[tweak]Title Amended - RV[/tweak]

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Just a bog-standard straight or wire gated krab should be fine.

Some people like screwgates. Most I think don't. They're just something else to jam and its not what I personally would want to contend with caught at a rebelay on a wet pitch with numb fingers!

But each to their own!

A 'bent gate' such as the Petzl spirit Is designed for use as on cowstails. The bend guides the rope in as pressure is applied to the Krab towards the rope, therefore quick and efficiend. A screwgate just hampers the proceedure, not good if you are traversing and reclipping after bolting points!

I know screws gates can be considered as a pain, but quite often if your doing a lot of twisting around on maneuvers, the added security of a krab done up can save having a pant filling episode. If you don't want to use the screw gate, have it screwed right down, but if you need that extra safety, use it.

Many a time I have had to climb out of shaft or sump where the rope is attached at floor level in the hole, reaching the top, clipping in on cowtail and then brute force over the scaffold pole and over, the krab gets twisted, pressed against other gear... no way would I want to do that on a snap gate.

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twist lock krabs are good where there's a risk of rope compression opening the gate, and no threads to get jammed with mud

Screw gates everytime for fixed rigging, but about my person a simple quickdraw krab or a twist lock for me

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Despite having plenty of bent and straight (most new, all serviceable, I plan on a little climbing at some point) gate snap krabs in a gear bag, I still replaced my old cowstails with screw gates, and steel ones at that. I don't use the screwlock unless needed, but it's there if I do. I prefer steel, and I don't mind the weight penalty.

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no way would I want to do that on a snap gate.

But in fairness this is a commonplace manoeuvre yet there aren't piles of dead cavers and mine explorers at the bottom of each pitch despite the fact that (from general observation), a large proportion of people don't appear to use screwgates or other types of locking carabiners. Certainly in that sort of situation I'd hope to still have my chest jammer attached and ideally my hand jammer somewhere if the rigging allowed so the cowstail would only be one point of contact rather than the sole safety net.

But suppose it's all down to what each individual is happy with.

There is a case for screwgates or similar for activities of a more technical nature but I suspect that is not what the OP is looking to do.

Does anybody have any cave rescue stats for incidents of people plummeting after using normal krabs?

When I started SRT, I got my first rig from Bat Products, Tony Jerratt (RIP), he advised screw gates. I've been doing SRT for 11 years now and most of that has been with COMRU members, only screw gates in their eyes due to safety, I'm happy with screws gates and they have never been a problem for me. As I said, you don't have to use them on easy speedy maneuvers, but when you need the security, they are there.

As said, "it's all down to what each individual is happy with."

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How about a compromise? I use an alloy screw-gate on my short cowtail, the one that I use for "hanging about" on at rebelays/deviations or for hanging on pulleys on steel wire (CRTT etc) and an alloy quick draw wire-gate on my long cowstail, for clipping in quickly at pitch heads prior to ab'ing, traverses etc...and also for clipping in quickly to someone who needs a swift "extra pair of hands". Never managed to get on very well with twist-gates though...twist/pull/squeeze all at the same time...too much for my brain to handle :lol:

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Steel screw gates for my 33 years of SRT. Most of the time they are permanently unscrewed and act effectively as snapgates but I value the facility of being able to screw them up for added security when occasion demands - e.g. protracted faffing about at a belay where, in the back of my paranoid mind, I would fear a snapgate possibly twisting open during odd jiggling around.

Additionally, by standardising all my mining and caving krabs as screwgates, I can swop them around with impunity and, in extremis, can even use cowstails krabs for other uses without worrying about, say, using a snapgate on a belay.

In the last decade I've been increasingly using oval maillons for rigging as they offer a considerable cost saving (and incidentally a weight saving for those who count grams - I don't).

My rock climbing krabs are mostly snapgates save for a selection of screwgates for rigging.

http://welshrandomadventures.blogspot.co.uk 

I use a snapgate on my middle, ultrashort cowstail, as that's always loaded vertically when in use, or under tension on traverses and I have screwgates on my two 'normal' cowstails. I don't necessarily screw them both up, but it's nice to have the option, for the reasons outlined in that post above - having read through the story, and having seen a krab do this on a faffy rebelay, I'm generally inclined to try and screw at least one up if I'm to be there any length of time, or have to do some vigorous manouever.

I can't see any advantage in not having extra security available, just for the sake of a few grams. My rope-access kit, with steel krabs festooned, etc., probably weighs about 10 kilos, so it's not really an issue in SRT, especially where a wet rope in a bag is usually my biggest issue. If the screwgate jams then I won't screw it up, but that's not a common occurrence, even after very muddy digging trips.

Many a time I have had to climb out of shaft or sump where the rope is attached at floor level in the hole, reaching the top, clipping in on cowtail and then brute force over the scaffold pole and over, the krab gets twisted, pressed against other gear... no way would I want to do that on a snap gate.

Now I wonder where this could possibly be?
:lol:

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http://www.cncc.org.uk/technical-group/warning.php 


Are these karabiners a solution?

http://www.cncc.org.uk/technical-group/warning.php 


Are these karabiners a solution?

I recently bought one of these Grivel twin gate crabs specifically to try out on cowstails. So far I have only used it in anger once and my initial observations are that they are a bit of faff. That said with a bit more practice they might prove to be more user friendly. At this stage I am not wholly convinced.

Screwgates were a bit of a faff to me at first, until I got used to them. I suspect the same will apply to these. I may ask Santa for a pair...

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"Searching for the ever elusive Underground Titty Bar."

NewStuff, Edgbaston Tunnel on Saturday nights when the hen party trip boats are running, think that's about the only one.;D:offtopic:

Back on topic. Just looked at wire gate crabs.:ohmygod:

Snapgates on my left hand side short and long cowstails and my THIRD cowstail (which happens to have my ascender on it) has a screwgate. Best of both worlds!

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Screw gate every time, do you what to take the risk when it all goes pair shaped?

I've got notchless screwgates on mine, notched krabs can occasionally snag on things, usually when you're right at the limit of your reach....

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Snaps.

And follow the most important rule of SRT: maintain 2 points of contact at all times.

Never had a problem with a snap unclipping. If I feel there's a problem lurking I stick another point of contact on, second cowstail/top ascender safety line, whatever.