derrickhand
11 years ago
Re various above, I was thinking of the Masters, which is recognised by RICS. It isn't directly comparable to the MQB ticket but it is the only course I know which specifically relates to a mine surveying qualification.

Re HMI at Combe Down, I had to be approved by the Inspector since the whole project was deemed to be under MASHAM and so had a Mine Manager and a full team. HMIM was prepared to exercise discretion (one of the Managers was also not ex-NCB although he had originally qualified from Cardiff, but worked at Wheal Jane and Crofty at various times) but his approval was required, and could have been withheld had he so seen fit.
plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose
Ty Gwyn
11 years ago
"Trewillan" wrote:

"Ty Gwyn" wrote:

Regarding a Deputy being unfairly liable for matters influenced by the owners,if that were the case,then the Deputy did`nt do his job.
In the present climate the Deputy can influence the owners,
As any unsafe working environment,the Deputy has the right to pull all men out,and any dispute of this with the owners,then the Deputy only has to walk,and the Colliery is shut down till a replacement can be found,not easy in today`s climate.



I thought "Deputies" ceased to exist with MASHAM Regs 1993?




As far as i`m aware,Deputies were in existence till a few year`s back when they changed the name to Command Supervisors.
staffordshirechina
10 years ago
Well it seems the consultation has taken place and published online. None of the respondents were notified, the response just appeared on the HSE website.
As expected, there is no stomach for changing categories of mine.
However, there is a very definitive statement on page 3 ( no, not that page 3!)
' Activities at abandoned mines will, as now, not be subject to mines legislation.'

You can see the full document here :-
http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd267-responses.pdf 

Les
derrickhand
10 years ago
Interesting document

I certainly agree there is an ongoing requirement for independent oversight of operational safety, whether in producing mines, tourist attractions or managing the long-term abandonment of old workings.

That said, there is also the obvious problem that the old NCB training system has ceased to function. It's effectively impossible now, to qualify - because the experience isn't available - and existing qualified persons are increasingly retiring.

Like it or not the mining industry has no real alternative to adopting a system essentially similar to the systems used in civil engineering, renewable energy or oil and gas.

plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose
rufenig
10 years ago
Very interesting to digest the responses to the proposals.

Total responding 31.
Of which 4 were "Mineral extracting companies"
and two "Tourist Mines"

Only 4 Mines! :(
and two Tourist mines, Just shows the size of the industry now!

There would have been more men at some pits than the whole industry now.
Trewillan
10 years ago
"derrickhand" wrote:

....That said, there is also the obvious problem that the old NCB training system has ceased to function. It's effectively impossible now, to qualify....



No, its not impossible. The "NCB" system has gone, but you don't need that to demonstrate competence, which is what's required.

Alternative qualifications are out there already, but competence is about more than paper qualifications.
derrickhand
10 years ago
"Trewillan" wrote:

"derrickhand" wrote:

....That said, there is also the obvious problem that the old NCB training system has ceased to function. It's effectively impossible now, to qualify....



No, its not impossible. The "NCB" system has gone, but you don't need that to demonstrate competence, which is what's required.

Alternative qualifications are out there already, but competence is about more than paper qualifications.



You need to read back a little way, in this thread. The MQ qualifications specifically require experience IN A BRITISH COAL MINE. That's why I didn't do the Mine Surveyor exam, and why the 2009 one was cancelled ; you can't get the required experience, so it is pointless to take the exam.

The authorities regularly turn down South Africans and Canadians with ample experience and excellent training, for the same reason.

It's becoming irrelevant, though. There are more mines outside the Regs than within them, there will be no-one left who qualified within five or seven years. The dinosaurs in the MQB will be dragged off into retirement and the world will still be turning.



plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose
Trewillan
10 years ago
"derrickhand" wrote:

"Trewillan" wrote:

"derrickhand" wrote:

....That said, there is also the obvious problem that the old NCB training system has ceased to function. It's effectively impossible now, to qualify....



No, its not impossible. The "NCB" system has gone, but you don't need that to demonstrate competence, which is what's required.

Alternative qualifications are out there already, but competence is about more than paper qualifications.



You need to read back a little way, in this thread. The MQ qualifications specifically require experience IN A BRITISH COAL MINE....

...It's becoming irrelevant, though. There are more mines outside the Regs than within them....



With the new Regs, all mines will be "inside" the same Regs. There will be no MQB qualifications, so no requirement for a surveyor to have experience in a British coal mine. You're right, MQB certificates become irrelevant.

derrickhand
10 years ago
What does concern me especially is the loss of the Mines Rescue function in favour of a commercial provider. Can't summon any enthusiasm for THAT one.

I'd like to shed a tear for the passing of the NCB, and the de-facto extinction of the NUM and their respective successors, but having been treated like shite by them when they had the upper hand, for the crime if taking the only job I could find - with a contractor, Foraky and subsequently Thyssen - and subsequently told my experience was of no value, I'm afraid I can't.


plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose
Trewillan
10 years ago
The UK Mines Rescue Service has been a "commercial provider" for the last twenty years. The change with the new Regs is that operators are no longer compelled to use the MRS scheme.
Trewillan
10 years ago
"rufenig" wrote:



Total responding 31.
Of which 4 were "Mineral extracting companies"
and two "Tourist Mines"

Only 4 Mines!....



No, not four mines, four mineral extracting companies. If those include British Gypsum and UK Coal it covers a lot more than four mines.
derrickhand
10 years ago
"Trewillan" wrote:

The UK Mines Rescue Service has been a "commercial provider" for the last twenty years. The change with the new Regs is that operators are no longer compelled to use the MRS scheme.



True, but given the small size of the current market and the limited resources of quite a few operators, I can't help feeling that the impact will fall most heavily on those who can least afford it due to the loss of mutuality
plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose
rufenig
10 years ago
The interesting thing will be how they apply these new regs to "tourist mines." As this is more likely to affect people here.

They have stated that the rescue requirement should be appropriate to the risk, we wait to see how this will be applied.

Will "Cave rescue callout " be appropriate? In most cases I think so, but that is just my view.

I can NOT see places Big Pit or Apedale (as examples) calling out non face trained people. So they will make other arrangements.

Fire and rescue service? :surrender: :thumbdown:

Watch this space!
Trewillan
10 years ago
"rufenig" wrote:

....I can NOT see places Big Pit or Apedale (as examples) calling out non face trained people....



Why not? How is "face training" relevant to removing a casualty from a tourist mine?
rufenig
10 years ago
Because the men there are all "Face Trained" ex miners some with deputies papers or higher.
They will never accept anyone else.

I will give you an example, if you go to Big Pit and try to fasten the battery belt yourself you will be told off and asked "are you an ex miner?
That is how they were brought up and trained.

(But by the way Big Pit and Apedale are fantastic sites and well worth a visit) before someone says I am knocking them. :smartass:
staffordshirechina
10 years ago
We might consider the cave rescue plus fire brigade back-up instead of the mines rescue if the price went up sky high.

Also, the mines rescue suffer from an aging workforce. Since the service was separated from the rest of the industry they have had no new blood passing in and out to pits. They have some trainees but again, where do they train?

At least the CRO's have young, fit people involved that can carry me out on a stretcher without getting a heart attack themselves........
derrickhand
10 years ago
Good luck with THAT

I was involved in a fire in a tunnel back in the 80s, when I was working for Murphy's. The Fire Brigade had to be called out and were less than useless, because of the supervision and escort they required to enter the completely unfamiliar environment. After that the project had to have a designated Fire Team, the same way that rigs do

I've also known Fire Brigades to refuse to enter rig sites at all because of "Elf'n'safety" and leave us to deal with the problem ourselves.

You can't really blame them, there's no value at all in getting someone hurt unnecessarily but it doesn't suggest they would be much use for a mine rescue.



plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose
Tamarmole
10 years ago
Having seen the FRS in action on a mine rescue exercise I have serious doubts as to their competence.

The downside of CRO involvement is the lack of BA capability.
derrickhand
10 years ago
My experience of CRO is that they function because they AREN'T a professional organisation operating in a professional context. I would have considerable reservations about the insurance issues, quite apart from anything else
plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose
Tamarmole
10 years ago
"derrickhand" wrote:

My experience of CRO is that they function because they AREN'T a professional organisation operating in a professional context. I would have considerable reservations about the insurance issues, quite apart from anything else



CROs are covered by Police insurance.

The involvement of CRO divers at Gleison demonstrates that CRO personnel can operate in a professional mine rescue context.
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