I have recently discovered that Roy has scanned their journals and uplifted these to the site.
Well done Roy.

However he thinks that our explorations in Smalllcleugh did not yield as much as their explorations in Brownley Hill.
He is missing a very important point, probably because he did not realise the earlier mine explorations in Smallclleugh.
By the late 70's the Holy Grail of mine exploration in the mine was the discovery of Boggs shaft.

We had been told by the late Eric Richardson that 15 veins met here and this was the route water and compressed air entered the mine

It was originally thought that it would be found in the area of the large flat accessed via Carr's Cross Vein. In fact exploration here led to the discovery of Baron's sump.Much of this was carried out by Earby Mines Research Society.
Unfortunately with the death of John McNeill they had done little more in the search for this.
So when we discovered Bogg's Shaft I knew we had made a major achievement.
This and the subsequent exploration of Longcleugh and Middlecleugh North Vein in my opinion was more important than the groups achievements in Brownley Hill Mine.

What was the reasoning behind looking for Bogg Shaft in the vicinity of Carrs Cross Vein?

The LLC (I think) Longcleugh plan places it substantially west of Cowhill Cross Vein as does the section in Dunham.

In the 1970's mine explorers had only two plans of Smallcleugh available to them.

The first was made by Peter Jackson based on his personal survey work assisted by members of his family. This plan was eventually copied and made available through members of Peak District Mines Historically Society as plan C97.
Both plans did not show Boggs shaft.
In 1984 Martin Critchley published the Nenthead Mine memoir, again under the auspices of P.D.M.H.S. The accompanying plan did not show Bogg's shaft.
All this took place in the days before photocopiers so all plans had to be traced and reproduced on a die - line machine.
So in answer to the point raised we really had no idea where the shaft was or how to get there.
Eventually I produced my own composite plans which gave us the information we needed , but that as they say is another story.

Thanks John.

Smallcleugh/Nent must have been a fascinating place to explore when huge parts of it were still a mystery.
Re Bogg Shaft though, the section in Dunham from 1948 does fix the location of the shaft fairly precisely, not that it really matters.

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Rich

Hi Rich,
You raise a good point we used to use the 1948 edition as bed time reading in those days!
However we naively thought that as Old Carr's Vein intersected Longcleugh Vein in the vicinity of the large flat then they must be a connection here.
Also Mike Luff through his connections had squired one of the LLC plans called Longcleugh Mine west of Carr's Vein and,without checking it I think Boggs shaft is shown on this.
Later this plan and others was incorporated into one of my coo site plans which circulated around the mining fraternity.

Also Mike Luff through his connections had squired one of the LLC plans called Longcleugh Mine west of Carr's Vein and,without checking it I think Boggs shaft is shown on this.

If its the same one I have then it is - as Bog Whimsey I think.

Did anyone ever trace a VM plan for Smallcleugh or the Middlecleugh/Longcleugh Veins?

There are as far as I know no V.M. Smallcleugh plans.
However there is a very large abandonment plan of Capelcleugh and middlecleugh mines dated 1.10 18 which covers the edge of Smallcleugh and finishes at Capelcleugh shaft.
It is this plan that Dunham took his section from.

In one of the catalogues of abandoned mine plans (1936), there is a mention that Sir Arthur Russell had copies of assorted plans from the east side of the Nent Valley. This set of plans would be very interesting if we could find them.

It is also recorded that some of the Nenthead plans were destroyed in a fire at the office at Nenthead in 1935. Originals of some plans which might have been involved in the "fire"have turned up in interesting places - Dunham collection, and Beamish collection ( for example), but the full set is still not available.

Special prize to be awarded to the finder of any of these missing plans!

Pete

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Thanks Peter for reminding me about the V.M.Nenthead fire.
A friend of yours Dr Dick Ineson told Robert and myself about a fire of mining documents/clear out after the death of the manager of Weardale Lead Company.
He had heard about the event in advance and rescued some documents/plans before the event.
I also recall that a lot of the day to day L.L.C. documents were kept in a Solicitors office in London and set on fire during the blitz.
It is no wonder we have found it difficult to piece together the history of these mines..
Perhaps it requires someone, preferably a French speaker to go through the V.M. archives which I have told are held in Liege, Belgium.

There are as far as I know no V.M. Smallcleugh plans.
However there is a very large abandonment plan of Capelcleugh and middlecleugh mines dated 1.10 18 which covers the edge of Smallcleugh and finishes at Capelcleugh shaft.
It is this plan that Dunham took his section from.

The abandonment plan of which I have copy is probably the same one to which you refer John, pencil note reads:

This plan is a true copy of the working plan of the mine as complete up to December 6th 1922. And I certify after though examination and inquiry, that to the best of my knowledge and belief it is an accurate plan of the mine.
Thos: F Walton

We know that he was in there with his mates later on, he signed his name on the wall where the concrete arching starts inbye. You will know about this John, its here for the benefit of others.

In darkest shades if thou appear
My dawning is begun
Thou art my souls bright shining star
And thou my rising sun.

L.W. Pattinson
Feb 23 1926

Its from the Methodist Hymn Book I am told

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Perhaps it requires someone, preferably a French speaker to go through the V.M. archives which I have told are held in Liege, Belgium.

There was somebody posting on here a number of years ago, a Belgian I think, who either worked for VM in its current incarnation or was at least connected with it in some way.

Unfortunately I can't remember what he called himself or what the thread was about to trace it which isn't a great deal of use.

Perhaps it requires someone, preferably a French speaker to go through the V.M. archives which I have told are held in Liege, Belgium.

There was somebody posting on here a number of years ago, a Belgian I think, who either worked for VM in its current incarnation or was at least connected with it in some way.

Unfortunately I can't remember what he called himself or what the thread was about to trace it which isn't a great deal of use.

Oh yes we do. It was Rotherhope Fell and the chap was so kind as to come up with plans which he digitalised for us.

However, its possible that he no longer visits this website, so PM will remain unanswered. Worth a try though, too late for me to try, I'm about to shut down for night.

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Roy I do not know how you obtained a copy of that plan, but you have reminded me of a possible source of Cumria Mine plans/ documents..
I carried out some research in the Cumbria record office, where they hold some of the Walton family documents.
It is fully of plans, and mine accounts. I have obviously spent some time looking at these and on one occasion the archivist, told me in confidence, that only part of the family documents were given to the office. Apparently some of the family wanted to retain them, so a compromise was made.- some kept and some given to the C.R.O.
This raises the possibility that somewhere in the county there is a large chest of interesting material!

This raises the possibility that somewhere in the county there is a large chest of interesting material!

Erica Roe joke anyone?

Roy I do not know how you obtained a copy of that plan, but you have reminded me of a possible source of Cumria Mine plans/ documents..
I carried out some research in the Cumbria record office, where they hold some of the Walton family documents.
It is fully of plans, and mine accounts. I have obviously spent some time looking at these and on one occasion the archivist, told me in confidence, that only part of the family documents were given to the office. Apparently some of the family wanted to retain them, so a compromise was made.- some kept and some given to the C.R.O.
This raises the possibility that somewhere in the county there is a large chest of interesting material!

It fascinates me John.
Imagine me exploring up there all on my own, as is often my way, and coming across those inscriptions looking as though they could easily have been done the day before.
You start thinking about the people involved, and this is what often draws you into research.

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CATMHS have a member in Belgium who has been copying some documents from the an archive. I believe that they are surface plans supporting sales of land by VMZ. Someone from CATMHS may be able to elaborate.

Philip Mostmans was researching the 1930s period of VMZ History. The documents he was viewing were in a University archive.

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A lot of the russell stuff is still in the natural history museum - I used to spend days down there looking through it when peter embrey was curator...

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Thanks for that Skippy. Do you remember any mine plans at the NHM?

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Not specifically Alston, Pete - but there were a lot of maps, diagrams and plans - rolls and rolls of them.. I had free access to everything in those days - had a corner of Pete Embreys office that I used to occupy for days on end. From what I can gather, they are a bit wary of letting anyone see them now - mainly cos mineral dealers get to them and go on raping trips.. I did go to some of the locations he recorded, and found amazing things - one was the vanadinite locality in Leadhills - found it, and found the vanadinite - still all there on a hillside if I can remember where it was! There were a LOT of plans of the Caldbecks, but in those days I wasnt so interested in Alston / Weardale as we are now we have the Greenlaws project - so didnt pick up on the stuff he had from those areas. It might be worth a call to Alan Hart to see what he has. I'm not sure what happened to Pete Embreys stuff - he died recently and his house in South Ken was piled high with records - literally you had to climb over them - there were no floors not covered with books and maps - even the kitchen.. I used to stay there with him sometimes and had to put my sleeping bag on piles of books!

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