Have a root around on here and you'll dig up my old thread. There is an interesting link showing a load of pictures of the trains having been shot out of the decline tunnel.

The whole thing is pretty incredible.

Have a root around on here and you'll dig up my old thread. There is an interesting link showing a load of pictures of the trains having been shot out of the decline tunnel.

The whole thing is pretty incredible.

can you imagine if (god forbid) it happened now Stuey! it would be all news, all channels, no more explosives permitted in the uk etc...

Don't encourage him! :lol:

another reason for a visit is that the local Pub dont mind you having mud on your boots and sells real beer, oh and food too.

another reason for a visit is that the local Pub dont mind you having mud on your boots and sells real beer, oh and food too.

and they don't mind you parking in car park to go explore 😉

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Nanny state has already done a fair bit to stop awful things happening.

As a one time chemist, I naturally have more than an interest in the chemistry of explosives.

Decent books on the matter are widespread on Amazon.... (I'm sure GCHQ are probably monitoring my every move! ).

One thing I am continually amazed by is that terrorists haven't so far made a really effective bomb and caused some real damage with it. If these people hate us so much, I'm pretty sure they have the will to do something hideous. The knowledge is in print and the raw materials are most certainly obtainable.

However, as an ex-inorganic chemist am frightened of primary explosives. Mucking around with detonators is a very sure way of losing fingers/life unless you are almost autistic with the level of dilligence during synthesis. I'd still be very wary though.

I gather the Fauld disaster was something to do with someone using an iron tool removing one of the detonator mechanisms. Funnily enough, I have a "mate" who has done something similar with wreck borne ordnance....it makes me cower thinking of it.

My opinion is that the fauld disaster would have had such a massive shock wave that anything detonatable would have gone off. Certainly if it had a primary charge in it.

From looking at the internet, it appears that the consensus is that there is a load of unexploded stuff down there, if you were to poke around in the crater, it could go off again.

I suppose the dangers of old ordnance are the separation of nitroglycerine containing mixtures and the reaction/crystallisation of detonators. For instance, if Lead Azide was used, there is a reaction pathway which can lead to Copper Azide which is a whole lot more sensitive.....like you think about it 2 miles away and it goes off.

Who knows what is left down there. It won't be any bang, or bodies, but it could be a very interesting trip indeed.

One thing is certain. It is unwise to talk about access points due to the sort of HSE bedwetting that people have been indoctrinated into. For all intents and purposes, it is sealed.

Agree about the nanny state one point though a shock wave of that size can hit active ordinance without setting it off. The shock can knock out the detonator mechanism. This can be seen in aircraft crashes. Some of the bombs returned to store were designed to take impact and only detonate much later having been fitted with timers. If it starts to tick RUN 🙂

Nitroglycerine will not be a problem now since it is water soluble so is likely to have been dispersed by now (at least the 1944 stuff), but I understand that the remaining workings were in use as ordinance storage depots until the '70's and some of that stuff is still down there! I strongly advise giving it a wide berth unless an organised trip is possible with someone who has a LOT of experience of the place.

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Are you sure NG is miscible/soluble in cold water?

I don't think it is. (sadly, I have lent my prep manual out at the moment and it's not in my regular organic data books!)

Are you sure NG is miscible/soluble in cold water?

I don't think it is. (sadly, I have lent my prep manual out at the moment and it's not in my regular organic data books!)

Virtually insoluable in water - acetone's perticularly good.

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Are you sure NG is miscible/soluble in cold water?

I don't think it is. (sadly, I have lent my prep manual out at the moment and it's not in my regular organic data books!)

Virtually insoluable in water - acetone's perticularly good.

Sorry guys, I stand corrected, I was thinking of something else! 😢

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Are you sure NG is miscible/soluble in cold water?

I don't think it is. (sadly, I have lent my prep manual out at the moment and it's not in my regular organic data books!)

Virtually insoluable in water - acetone's perticularly good.

Sorry guys, I stand corrected, I was thinking of something else! ;(

Looking at the molecule, it would lead you to think it was water soluble. It was only when I read the synthesis it suggested otherwise.

We found a box of blasting gelatine about 1/2 full (somewhere in the British Isles) and although the Nitrocellulose part of it is pretty safe stuff, I remember seeing "damp" on the surface of the sticks. I thought, "The NG will be long gone". This is perhaps not the case.

Somewhere in the depths of my memory, I recall being told that old gel absorbs water and this displaces the ng, the result is "sweating gel", the droplets are some form of de-natured ng, enough to give you a stinker of a gel-head, but not as sensitive as the raw stuff, its over 40 years since I worked at ECP (as it was called then)

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This would make sense. Either the gell absorbs water, or crystallises and pushes the NG out.

I remember something about metals forming NG-metallic compounds/salts which are VF dangerous!

Don't Gelatines also contain some Ammonium Nitrate? This could be dissolved out by moisture and then crystallise.

Long time ago, but I read something (possibly from Nobel)about dipping "sweating" sticks in water. NG would come off as oily drops, i.e. not dissolve. AN would dissolve.

I think the point was that sticks were more likely to be exuding AN than NG, but it was a good idea to check.

Can you confirm that Stuey?

There's a surprising amount of sweaty explosives lying around if you know where to look.

On the bright side, it's likely to resist any attempts to move it so it's not the concern that It might otherwise be.

For all the concern there were in the media about a couple of sticks somewhere in the Gwydir Forest, that's probably only a small sample of what's lying around underground and forgotten about elsewhere.

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Sadly, I don't have my:-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Preparatory-Manual-Explosives-Third-Edition/dp/0615142907/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1339875049&sr=8-3 

...to hand. Hurry to get a copy before the gummint put their "internet snooping self-permission" though! (very good book for anyone from an amateur (as long as your not a muslim) or an expert chemist to understand more about stuff which goes bang. (The black powder book is not worth owning though).

Back to the question (and I'm sorry to go off topic too much). There is no AN in NG, although if you made your own nitric acid in your shed from stuff you got from the farmer in the pub, and were pretty sloppy with your technique, it might.

Off the top of my head, I think AN was sometimes used as a filler in Dynamite and your comment holds true. If you get the book (which will be bloody useful come financial PIIGmageddon) it lists a load of different dynamite recipes.

I gather that some chap with a rather big beard (non-caver) got in lots of trouble for having a copy of Al-Qaeda's coffee table read (well, I've bloody well done it now, mentioning them and that book in the same reply, if I disappear, I bequeath my caving gear and book collection to Rich) so it's perhaps unwise given nanny state's suspicion, paranoia and hatred of dissent to encourage you to discuss such things.

However, it's a good book and well worth a read.

Having said, if the government do pass this internet snooping bill, they will have to wade through literally terabytes of internet "grumble" in order to find anything remotely relevant to their cause..... I imagine there are a fair few gigabytes of lesbians dressed as terrorists, or visa versa.

From my time in the industry, I remember Gelamex and Plastergel both containing AN as both a filler and a booster, this was what I was thinking about when I erroneously said about NG being soluble. AN is hydroscopic so attracts water, thereby causing the NG to sweat out. (Does that sound right Stuey? - it was a long time ago!)

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Don't Gelatines also contain some Ammonium Nitrate? This could be dissolved out by moisture and then crystallise.

I think the point was that sticks were more likely to be exuding AN than NG, but it was a good idea to check.

Can you confirm that Stuey?

AN doesn't give you the headaches I experienced when we where disposing of the sweaty stuff!

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Sadly, I don't have my:-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Preparatory-Manual-Explosives-Third-Edition/dp/0615142907/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1339875049&sr=8-3 
There is no AN in NG,

What I meant was, I think there is some AN in Blasting Gelatines, as well as the NG.