stuey
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13 years ago
I was down a very interesting Cornish mine yesterday with a few of the chaps and we decided to push a tunnel as far as we could. Previous trips have had to turn around due to call out times, but we really decided to go for it.

We rounded a pile from a run in shaft and set off along a long coffin level, with the odd ochre stal, gradually I was aware there were some which were like bogeys and eventually the whole ceiling of the tunnel was dripping with hanging "snot". Progressing further, the whole walls were covered in gunge as well as the floor. It was like how you would imagine the inside of a whale to look like. The level ended at a capped shaft, open below with the sound of rushing water. We realised we couldn't breathe and turned around. I estimated the air to be in the 10% region. It was pretty nasty in there.

I've been in a fair few mines and seen a lot of big sulphidey lodes and the odd "snotite" but never anything remotely resembling this. My questions are as follows:-

1. Why have the bacteria picked this particular place to form such epic numbers? Considering the lode is pretty consistent through the mine and the formation is very similar to a lot of others.

2. Are these bacteria responsible for the oxygen depletion, or is it something to do with the decomposition of sulphides?

NB:- We were going to get some photos, but we needed to get out quickish.
spitfire
13 years ago
NB:- We were going to get some photos, but we needed to get out quickish.
Carry on the way your going stuey, and you aint going to get out at all
spitfire
Cornish Pixie
13 years ago
You 'estimated' the air to be around 10% - did you not have a gas meter with you? We were surveying some C18th workings in Ireland last week. The meter started going off regularly as we finished the survey and it was getting pretty hard to breathe with two of us in a confined chamber while we were exerting ourselves. As we were operating under strict health and safety requirements laid down in our contract with the local council, we exited the workings when the meter showed levels of just over 17%. The normal concentration of oxygen in fresh air is 20.9%. It is commonly accepted that an atmosphere is deemed hazardous if the concentration of oxygen drops below 19.5%. If the concentration falls below 17%, mental and physical agility are noticeably impaired. I wasn't sorry to haul my ass out of that hole we were in. Just be careful mate.
Den heb davaz a gollaz i dir
stuey
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13 years ago
Sharron, I can assure you that I am always aware of how my body reacts in various atmospheres from experience.

There is a lot of nonsense written and it does keep people safe, which is great, but you can go a lot lower.

I've been on a rope at 15% which is fine (to go steady) and on the flat at 11.5% (very careful movement). There is a lot of misunderstanding and misconception as well as dogma about how bad air works.

The above figures were the result of a very carefully planned and executed test that I and my doctor chum did on ourselves in a safe-ish environment.

If you haven't had a read, read this.

http://wasg.iinet.net.au/Co2paper.html 

I am particularly aware of the various symptoms I have at various concentrations of O2 and how they come on relative to the gradient of O2. Being aware of this and thinking "There is no air in here" gives you a time limit to get out.

We took ourselves down to where we felt pretty horrible, but "able to function" which was 11.5% and then exerted ourselves to see what happened. First a little bit and then a lot. Essentially, a whole load of different things happen which vary in seriousness and when you feel horrible, you have a fair window of body oxygen to see you out.... Obviously, you don't go steaming in somewhere and then find yourself in a world of ****.

Following running around with gas meters and reading all sorts about how I'm going to die, I've decided the old cavers have got the right idea. Know the symptoms, know the rates at which they come on, know the safety margin and most importantly, take it very steady and carefully.

They are right.


Brakeman
13 years ago
Stuey, is the bacterial formation like these in Parry's Mountain?

๐Ÿ”—Parys-Mountain-Copper-Mine-User-Album-Image-043[linkphoto]Parys-Mountain-Copper-Mine-User-Album-Image-043[/linkphoto][/link]

This large copper mine had been flooded for very many years so virtually no air for the most part. The mine would be similar I suspect to some of your Cornish copper mines with large iron pyrite deposits.

Oddly, one member of a party of explorers decided to taste the stuff and almost ended up hospitalised, it made him quite ill for several days.
The management thanks you for your co operation.
Cornish Pixie
13 years ago
I hear what you are saying and I've been into places like Mt Wellington and felt the effects of low oxygen and shitty air. Fine when you're doing this as a hobby. But we were employed by a local authority and yes, we had to comply with your dreaded H&S morons. Up to you how you go about your underground explorations; I was just expressing my interest in your welfare cause I'd hate to be reading your bloody obituary one day ๐Ÿ˜ž
Den heb davaz a gollaz i dir
viewer
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13 years ago
stuey

why did you remove the bulk of what was a very interesting post?

cheers
'Learning the ropes'
stuey
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13 years ago
I remembered about who might be watching the forum and how excited they might get, plus, it was beyond my usual level of hyperbole!

FYI, Wellington goes down to 11% out the back and about 10.6% in the raises. There is most importantly, no CO2.

I was dragged to Hallenbeagle by some likely characters a few years ago as I used to run around with a gas meter and I had quite an exciting psychosomatic affect of the meter alarming at 17%. It is amazing what a bit of dogma can do.

I'll recall a couple of points:-

11.5%. Feeling a bit shaky, tired, sweaty at rest. Modest effort:- Feeling very shaky, face flushed. Moderate effort:- Feeling disorientated, judgement beginning to be impaired. Returning to rest:- Feeling uneasy, had to calm myself down and normal judgement returned in about 1 minute. At all times, my breathing was pretty normal.

You can attain the same level of nastiness in higher concentrations with more effort. Especially in a shaft. This is why I set my shaft concentration at an arbitrary 15%. This is what I consider and have successfully ascended carefully in 15%. I suspect there is a safety margin here and it would be possible to ascend very slowly and carefully around the 12% mark, but I wouldn't want to try it.

CO2. Those who know me will have heard the CO2 story. We dipped a shaft with my Davy Lamp (goes out at 15%- I've tested it in a bell jar with a gas meter) and it was good to go. All the factors were right, high air pressure, lots of weather fronts, had done several trips in there with no problems and so down we went. 120ft shaft, got off at 80ft into a level, felt the usual "it's about 16%ish", a bit hot and shaky but at 120ft we got off at the level and all of a sudden couldn't breathe. It was like having your head in a plastic bag. We stood still as to minimise our oxygen demand and normality returned. We progressed along the tunnel until I heard my chum (in front of me, breathing like an old dog) and thought "Enough, let's get out". As we turned around, we were panting away even more and when we got to the bottom of the shaft, we couldn't control our breathing. It was very very frightening. When the table on the link says "Exhaustion merely from the effort of breathing" they are not joking. It was the ascent from hell and we were very lucky to get out. If there is CO2, you cannot control your breathing and if the oxygen is low enough, you will black out. Thankfully, this was not the case, as the Davy lamp lit. I suspect the CO2 was around the 6% mark.

This would not have been picked up by your 4 gas H2S/LEL/CO/O2 meter, matches, lighter or Davy lamp.

CO2 is rare in Cornish mines, but not in this particular one where sawdust was dumped down shafts 80 years ago. Due to the lack of rain, the resulting chemical pathway which keeps the concentration down normally, there was an elevated concentration and we came across it.

Clearly, the usual "Progress slowly and if you start feeling "symptoms" turn around and progress out even more slowly" doesn't work as you have no choice but to breathe yourself to exhaustion in high CO2. Wherever people are breathing hard in what they might call low O2, it is due to excess CO2 in the bloodstream, which if not caused by metabolism, is caused by CO2 in the atmosphere. A few people in a very tight tunnel can put the CO2 up to a nasty level which is well documented in a certain set of experienced explorers anecdotes in the same mine. I ran the maths through, as it is possible to roughly calculate how many people you can get down a given hole before they get in trouble.

Anyway, this is off on a tangent to my bacteria-gunge question!

That gunge in the above photo is the same as Jane's deep adit, which I believe to be limonite which has been deposited from solution/suspension.

The stuff we came across was slime. Like gloopy wallpaper paste everywhere. It was like being in a film scene. Shame we didn't get any photos as I've seen nothing like it anywhere, or in any photos.
viewer
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13 years ago
fair comment stuey

cheers
'Learning the ropes'
Roy Morton
13 years ago
4Level east in Mt Wellington had deposits on the footwall that were so deep, that if you put your hand ourt to steady yourself it would literaly disapear up to the wrist in snottite gunge.
This gunge would leave the skin on your hands roughened,
but nowhere near as bad as the grey sulphide mud contained in the pyrite vughs. That stuff was vicious and would 'eat' your hands instantly. 2 weeks to get them back to normal using epic quantities of Nivea.
It could turn your skin into Velcro.
The only thing I have ever seen that resembles the snottite gunge, was when I was an apprentice at BR. The old guys used to save all thier old bits of soft soap and then boil it up in a big drum with some water. The resultant 'stuff' was like something that Sigourney Weaver may have encountered in the Alien films. It was the weirdest feeling material I have ever come across.
If you can imagine jelly that hasn't quite set mixed with Vermicelli, then that's getting close.



"You Chinese think of everything!"
"But I''m not Chinese!"
"Then you must have forgotten something!"
stuey
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13 years ago
This stuff was clear and probably up to 6" deep on the ceiling and 2-3" on the walls. It was bloody strange.

Clearly, the conditions for their growth was spot on. I wonder if it was anything to do with humidity as there was a shaft with a lot of water roaring down it from a level below.

There wasn't even a lone snottite in the rest of the mine.

The bigger of the chaps in front of me looked like he had attended a japanese business lunch. :lol:
droid
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13 years ago
Partial answer to Q1

Snottites are 'extremophiles'. They obtain energy from chemical reactions involving the oxidation of sulphide compounds to (eventually) Sulphuric acid. I think....
Point is, since they are just about clinging on to life, any small - ie undetectable to us - variation in the environment can make them fail to colonise.
It's a bit like the alkaline flushes you get in acid moorland. You get a sudden proliferation of species of plants because in that small area the conditions for growth are better.
stuey
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13 years ago
If I remember rightly, the pathway has Pyrite at one end and involves H2SO4 as a product, as well as limonite. The limonite being the ochre we know so well.

Clearly, these things are pretty extreme organisms, but there is pyrite throughout the mine, as well as moisture, a fair degree of air. What I am particularly curious about why these have bunched up in such a place.

The only thing I can say distinguishes this particular site from many many many others is the shaft with water roaring away in the depths. I wonder if it is anything to do with the droplets.

The next question would be "Is this massive colony responsible for the bad air in the end? Or is it a symptom of the mine being poorly ventilated and with the presence of sulphides the limit to which the mine "breathes".

The idea is "Would it be worthwhile digging under the cap to get a ventilation circuit going, assuming that the low O2 was localised due to these peculiar circumstances?".

My knowledge of the bacteria is that they can drag oxygen levels down to about 1%. An old question of mine was "Is it possible to find oxygen levels lower than about 10.5% in a disused Cornish mine". So far, I have not, but it is possible according to the bumpf I've read.
Graigfawr
13 years ago
There are snottalies in Caecoch Sulphur Mine in North West Wales. There was an article about them in 'Descent' some years ago. A biologist from Bangor University found that the prolific streamer growths (tens of feet in length) were bacterial colonies that were living on the waste products of other colonies that were metobolising energy from the sulphur in the rock and/or sulphuric acid pools (pH 2 as I recall) and thriving due to the reduced oxygen (I distinctly remember headaches and disorientation on trips in the early 1980s) in much of the mine atmosphere. Might be parallels with the snotties that you've found...

If the snotties that you've found aren't too inaccessible you might get a university biologist to take and intererest and determine what they are. There are frequent hopes of commercial uses for wierd bacteria especially those that can consume strange materials as they might prove useful for waste disposal.
owd git
13 years ago
Did it look like this?
UserPostedImage
stuey
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13 years ago
No, it looked like everything was covered in thick vaseline.

I gather that the low air is a feature of these aerobic bacteria, rather than a facilitator of. (So I am lead to think)

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