Low flat - east end of hard Crosscut (photo)

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John Lawson
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13 years ago

Good photo Pete,
I reckon that this area was worked out by V.M.during the first war period when they were keeping up production by using deads.
I speculate that they also had highered the horse level-from this point going out bye with the intention of driving at that height to the junction on Smallcleugh Vein.As you know this was never completed and again I speculate that this was due to the end of the first world war subsidy, which eventually lead to the closure of the upper Nenthead Sett.
This pure speculation -also leads me to think that they needed the extra height to use a loco- as they did in Rampgill .

Photograph:

🔗Smallcleugh-Lead-Mine-User-Album-Image-72668[linkphoto]Smallcleugh-Lead-Mine-User-Album-Image-72668[/linkphoto][/link]

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PeteJ
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13 years ago

John, interesting thought about the locos. As an aside, Peter Holmes is researching the loco history at Nenthead. It seem likely that there were three locos. Two were produced by Ruhrthaler and there are several pictures of these. One other is an "unknown" and has been described as a Hydroleum locomotive - this is the one that has two youthful locomen standing close by, with a string of wagons attached.

Pete

Pete Jackson
Frosterley
01388527532

derrickman
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13 years ago

http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/51/Letters%2051.htm

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.

christwigg
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13 years ago

A search of Google Books gives a few references to Arthur Koppel's hydroleum locomotive all between 1904 and 1909.

Not found a photo yet, but heres a description from The Queenslander Saturday 4 December 1909

[photo]Personal-Album-859-Image-72747[/photo]

John Lawson
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13 years ago

This Hydroleum engine, seems to be a steam engine fuelled by hydrocarbons. As such it has the immediate advantage of releasing a lot less carbon oxides than a coal fired traditional engine-since over half the exhaust gases would be water.
Having been into Rampgill many times I think even then ventilation would have been a problem.
Going back to my original point if you consider the cleared areas of Smallcleugh,namely the Ballroom, Mitchells Flat(partially), and the area around the mini-ballroom-all had easy acess to sumps leading to the Hanging Shaw branch of Rampgill. So the deeds could easily be removed using the loco to the mill.
The deeds in the North End Flats were probably the last easy source for the V.M. Company and probably without the use of a loco would have been difficult to move.

christwigg
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13 years ago

Found some cracking photos of Hydroleum Engines from 1909

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=337&seq=39&view=image&size=100&id=mdp.39015010798885

Description goes onto the next page too.

grahami
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13 years ago

"christwigg" wrote:
Found some cracking photos of Hydroleum Engines from 1909

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=337&seq=39&view=image&size=100&id=mdp.39015010798885

Description goes onto the next page too.

Wow! Many thanks - Oakeley tried a Hydroleum loco at about that time - 1909 - never seen a picture before!

Cheers

Grahami

The map is the territory - especially in chain scale.

Roger the Cat
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13 years ago

Just a thought a little O/T.

Compressed air locomotives were used at some munitions stores/factories.

As compressed air was already available at most mines I am suprised that they were not more widely used - unless sombody out there knows diifferent...

derrickman
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13 years ago

compressed air locos were widely used in mining and tunnelling in the US and Germany, but were superseded by electric ones as the technology improved.

They have quite significant limitations regarding power and endurance. The compressed air supply required to charge one to any useful pressure is far beyond the supply needed to drive drills, say.

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.

John Lawson
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Newbie Topic Starter

13 years ago

#10

Hi Derrickman,
If you read about the VM. plant at Nenthead you will quickly realise they had no compressed air capacity! They compressed the air hydraulically and any spare was used for pumping.
So a compressed air loco would have been out of the question.
It appears to me that having invested in the new Krupps gravity plant( and I have actually spoken to one of the fitters who put it together!), they carried out their operations as cheaply as possible and clearly would not spend on something which did not see an immediate return.

RJV
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13 years ago

#11

Given the short distance involved wouldn't a rudimentary haulage system have involved less fuss than heightening the level? Any old engine placed near the portal, a few hundred meters of rope and a roller to guide the rope here and there would be about all it would need.

derrickman
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13 years ago

#12

"John Lawson" wrote:
Hi Derrickman,
If you read about the VM. plant at Nenthead you will quickly realise they had no compressed air capacity! They compressed the air hydraulically and any spare was used for pumping.
So a compressed air loco would have been out of the question.
It appears to me that having invested in the new Krupps gravity plant( and I have actually spoken to one of the fitters who put it together!), they carried out their operations as cheaply as possible and clearly would not spend on something which did not see an immediate return.

It seemed to be a fairly general question so I gave a general answer. FWIW, having actually worked with a compressed air loco on one occasion, I would say their main disadvantage is that they are bloody useless!

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.

John Lawson
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Newbie Topic Starter

13 years ago

#13

It is good to note that no-one, so far has raised objections to my speculation regarding the height differentials, out bye at the East End of the Hard Cross cut.
Originally I had thought the obvious place to start highering this level for a loco, would to be at the entrance, but as all Smallcleugh explorers know, only too well it is quite low!
So why start at the end of the cross-cut band not the beginning?
My late friend Eric Richardson offered a possible explanation.
He told me that during the working of the upper Nenthead Valley Mines, they used two entrances.
Capelcleugh low level was used for tramming the ore and Smallcleugh level was used as a man way and entrance for mining support materials.
Clearly if they had started at the entrance then the highering would have interfered with the latter. By starting at the end this disruption would have been minimised.