Level1
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17 years ago
Can anyone tell me, please, if the CROW Act includes undergound access? Suppose I am walking across access land and I see an interesting hole in the ground, am I allowed to enter, or is the access surface only?
jagman
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17 years ago
"Level1" wrote:

Can anyone tell me, please, if the CROW Act includes undergound access? Suppose I am walking across access land and I see an interesting hole in the ground, am I allowed to enter, or is the access surface only?



No it does not include undeground
Level1
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17 years ago
Thank you for the swift response Jagman. Shame CROW does not include underground.
Barney
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17 years ago
Hi level1, i think this thread might be also of use to you ...
http://www.aditnow.co.uk/community/viewtopic.aspx?t=1273 
Vanoord
17 years ago
This may seem very familiar to some of you, as this is the third incarnation of this post...

With the introduction of the Countryside and Rights of Way act (CROW), there seemed to be a great benefit to those of us who poke our noses into abandoned mines, on the basis that we would be able to walk right up to an adit quite legally.

However, the downside of this is that everybody else can do the same and this raises the nasty spectre of public liability claims if someone falls down a mineshaft - for example, such a thing did happen in one of the mines on the Moelwyns in north Wales and the adits were sealed off to prevent any more hikers falling down deep shafts and dying.

DEFRA have the following to say on the subject (considerably edited):

Quote:

Disused mines and quarries

The 1954 Act requires the owner (i.e. the person who owns the mineral rights) of a disused or abandoned mine to secure and maintain the surface entrance to every shaft or outlet with a sufficient enclosure or other device to prevent any person from accidentally entering the outlet or falling down the shaft. This statutory duty applies irrespective of whether or not the mine is accessible from a public place and will not be affected by the new right of access.

Occupiers liability

You have a lower duty of care to trespassers and to members of the public using the new right of access under the Occupiers Liability Act 1984. This Act requires you to take reasonable care that people do not suffer injury if you know there is a danger that they may come into contact with, and it is reasonable to expect you to offer some protection.

What do I do if there is an unsecured mine or quarry on my land?

If there is a disused mine on your land ... and have not already done so, you will need to take steps to secure the site. This is an existing requirement and is not related to the introduction of the new right of access.



The Chartered Institute of Environmental Health have this comment:

Quote:

Local authorities, mainly districts and unitaries, in mining areas should routinely inspect and record all mine openings. Where they are unsecured and constitute a statutory nuisance the authority should require them to be capped, gated or secured with a grill. They should be inspected every two or three years to ensure new openings have not appeared or the fencing has been vandalised.



The attitude of the Institute for Outdoor Learning is a little more refreshing:

Quote:

Warning sign and either vegetation management or say an inexpensive double row of barbed wire in respect of dangers that cannot be readily recognised. However, in the upper Nent Valley of Cumbria there is a system where mine entrances have warning signs and are gated but not locked. Locking was found to be counter productive requiring continual repairs caused by people forcing locks to gain access.



The problem that has been created by the CROW is a serious one and, in my opinion, will threaten access to many of the underground locations we enjoy. In the past, an owner could rely on there being a considerable barrier to their mine in the form of their own privtae property: in short, it's very easy to stop someone getting in to your mine if they can't get near the adit. Furthermore, if they do get to the adit then that would be by trespassing and the liabilities of the owner would - in practice - be somewhat reduced.

Once land becomes open access, the owner has to face up to a whole lot of new responsibility: that adit that was half-a-mile off the beaten track is suddenly on "public" land and Little Timmy can run in there after Fido, only to fall into a deep hole and never be seen again. There is a legal requirement for access to be restricted, be it by fences, warnings or gates and the need has been greatly magnified.

In the case of a private landowner, the problem is perhaps not too pressing: as long as efforts have been made to seal off access to dangerous workings, that will probably prove enough.

The real problem comes when the landowner is a company, as corporate liability is much better defined. While there should be no real reason why a company should be any more liable than an individual, a couple of things count against them: firstly, a company must have an auditable process of ensuring the safety of members of the public on its land - and if this fails, there are severe penalties, both financial against the company and criminal against the directors; secondly (and to my mind far more important), companies tend to have nice big public liability insurance policies - and if Little Timmy's parents visit a 'no win no fee' solicitor, then the bills are going to be big.

The upshoot of this is that we can expect landowners who have mines to start blocking them off if the land becomes Access Land. Is there an easy solution to this? Who knows, but it seems to me that we'd better enjoy things while we can and record as much history as we can by photographing it.

Note: since I wrote the above. new legislation on corporate responsibility have been introduced, which make it possible to jail company directors for their company's failings, even if a private individual may have got away with a similar offence. Sadly, this is likely to increase the pressure on companies to seal off adits.

However there is also the issue of bats, but I don't think I'm qualified to comment on that. Now then, where's Roy Fellows when you need him...? ::)
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
Vanoord
17 years ago
Thank you AdrianP, I think I'll have to read that when my brain is not clouded by the fruits of Japanese stills! :)

Legislation is a wonderful thing, as oft those who write it have little idea of the subject; and frequently there are considerable omissions which have unintentionally huge impacts.

I've been involved in a couple of cases where the CROW has been demonstrably lacking and am currently embroiled in a case (as bystanders effectively) where it is likely that legislation will have to be changed in order to effect a solution.

It seems that - perhaps sadly - the laws of unintended consequences rule supreme: the aim, of the CROW cannot, surely, have been to limit access and punish landowners?
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
jagman
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17 years ago
"Vanoord" wrote:




The Chartered Institute of Environmental Health have this comment:


The attitude of the Institute for Outdoor Learning is a little more refreshing:

Quote:

Warning sign and either vegetation management or say an inexpensive double row of barbed wire in respect of dangers that cannot be readily recognised. However, in the upper Nent Valley of Cumbria there is a system where mine entrances have warning signs and are gated but not locked. Locking was found to be counter productive requiring continual repairs caused by people forcing locks to gain access.



:



😮 Makes you proud to be a mine explore does that comment 😮
Absolutely true though, it has been accepted for years in Nenthead that locks just irritate the like of us and hence they aren't employed much
emax
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16 years ago
Hi there,

There is an old limestone mine a few miles away from where I live. I have been down there quite a few times about 15 years ago or so.

I've got the urge to explore them further but I'm wondering what the legalities are of exploring the place (bearing in mind that Scottish laws may differ from England and Wales).

The mine has two entrances that I know of, each on different owner's land.

Entrance A is on a farm and the farmer is not at all keen on people exploring the mine (or being on his property in general). The majority of the underground workings are under his land.

Entrance B is in the garden of a private house. The owner is friendly and has no problem with allowing access.

The mine was abandoned in the 1950s and the company that owned the mine went into liquidation a few decades ago. I am unsure who, if anyone, now owns the mineral/underground rights to the place.

Does the farmer have any power to stop people exploring this mine if they do not gain access from the entrance his land? Are any other laws being broken here with respect to the mineral rights owner of the mine given the fact it has been abandoned for nearly 60 years?

Any advice, much appreciated.
Jimbo
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16 years ago
"emax" wrote:

Does the farmer have any power to stop people exploring this mine if they do not gain access from the entrance on his land?



Only if he owns the mineral rights for the whole mine/quarry.

"emax" wrote:

Are any other laws being broken here with respect to the mineral rights owner of the mine given the fact it has been abandoned for nearly 60 years??



I shouldn't think so if it's over 60 years since abandonment (but someone may still own the rights). Just use the entrance in the friendly guys garden & the farmer will be none the wiser (also don't name or post obvious pictures of it in a public place if you don't want him to know) 😉
"PDHMS, WMRG, DCC, Welsh Mines Society, Northern Mines Research Group, Nenthead Mines Society and General Forum Gobshite!"
emax
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16 years ago
"Jimbo" wrote:

I shouldn't think so if it's over 60 years since abandonment (but someone may still own the rights). Just use the entrance in the friendly guys garden & the farmer will be none the wiser (also don't name or post obvious pictures of it in a public place if you don't want him to know) 😉



Thanks Jimbo,

That's as I suspected, I just wanted to clarify that.

For the reasons I've stated, I'm not keen to share the location of this place at the moment anyway. It's a shame as it's not currently documented here and there is very little information about it at all on the internet.

Cheers..

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