AR
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16 years ago
From the BBC today: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/7862428.stm 

Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
Brakeman
16 years ago
That's great news, so long as when it gets reffered to Hazel Blears, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, for consideration, she does not overturn the decision.

Hopefully some of the profits from this operation will allow Glebe mines to fully reopen Milldam mine. Work has started at Milldam but is going to be an expensive venture to re equip this mothballed mine and drive the new inclines, so getting this opencast running first is vital.



The management thanks you for your co operation.
toadstone
16 years ago
IMHO I think this is very good news. The current nationwide job loses might well have had some influence on the PDNPA's agreement to allow Glebe Mines to work the open pit on Bonsall Moor for fluorspar along with Glebe Mines concession not to work Peak Pasture.
AR
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16 years ago
I'd heard that reopening Milldam was dependent on getting the Tearsall permission but I don't know how accurate that is, although it seems that there's a conditon in the permission that by 2011 15% of the mineral processed at Cavendish mill must have come from underground. I'm trying to find the actual application online, but as usual, the online planning portal is being crap..... :guns:
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
toadstone
16 years ago
I don't know if you've seen these links Adam, do they help?
http://www.tearsall.co.uk/ 
http://www.glebemines.com/ 

Peter.
Brakeman
16 years ago
Have been over to Milldam recently, there is a lot of work going on at the site around the entrance to the mine. The adit though has run in badly as it's driven through shale, this is being cleared, but the mine now needs all new electrics including new substation and power supply and cables etc.

I believe as all this will take some considerable time before it comes on stream, the ore supply from Tearsall plus what's coming out of the Watersaw mine is required to keep the mill operational.

There is also an ongoing problem with a landowner who owns the land above where the Milldam mine will eventually head.
The management thanks you for your co operation.
AR
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16 years ago
I had seen them Peter, but thanks for posting them up all the same!

I'd guess Milldam is where the extra 2011 ore is intended to come from, and as for landowner problems, by the 1851 act I wouldn't imagine there's much he can do! If Glebe hold possession of a lead-bearing vein and have extraction permission, then they can lawfully mine away to their heart's content, as long as they leave 16 yards of uncut ground under roads, houses, and suchlike....
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
Jasonbirder
16 years ago
Probably great news for people that live in Cheshire...less so for those that actually live nearby...i believe there were 2,269 letters of objection, because of fears about the impact to tourism, to local jobs and the impact on local communities caused by damage to the landscape and the noise and dust created.
waggy
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16 years ago
The problem with the landowner over which glebe want to extract is a tad more technical than the 1851 act anyway glebe run on the flourspar extraction rights of 1959 which is part of the problem. They are moving on with milldam pretty well security is tight there now and power has been restored to the surface buildings. 🙂
[i]I am always upto my neck in it!
toadstone
16 years ago
"Jasonbirder" wrote:

Probably great news for people that live in Cheshire...less so for those that actually live nearby...i believe there were 2,269 letters of objection, because of fears about the impact to tourism, to local jobs and the impact on local communities caused by damage to the landscape and the noise and dust created.



It is most definitely good news for people that live in Cheshire, Runcorn to be precise; it will secure 1,500 jobs for a little longer in our every diminishing manufacturing workforce.

The NIMBY attitude of many newcomers to National Park areas such as the Peak District, should remember that not everyone wants to be employed as yoga teachers, artists, photographers, hoteliers or park wardens. Such areas need real jobs too that are ultimately more beneficial to a wider population and that keep skills alive. (Yes I am a grumpy old fart).

The traditional occupations that once were the mainstay of Derbyshire employment in the past, that of quarrying, mining and farming should be allowed to co-exist with the newer service industry type jobs. It is those very occupations that have shaped and made the landscape today that such NIMBYs & Authorities want to preserve. But it is a living landscape and as our national population increases, very much more demands will be made upon it. Water supply just being one for example, applying to other Parks too of course.

I realise the pitch made on the Tearsall web site (link above) is for selling the idea but it does make interesting reading and very enlightening as to the modern uses of fluorspar in the chemical industry and its importance.

It was also very interesting to read that during the application/consultation process that only 100 souls went to the public exhibition held over 5 days (albeit limited access 3-7pm). That 1300 information leaflets were sent out to locals in the immediate area. So the 2,269 letters of objection seem a little disproportionate to me and could be construed as interference in others affairs (with the best intentions I'm sure).

Finally, the actual quotation by the PDNPA spokesperson on the BBC's website was:
An authority statement said: "On one hand we heard about receiving 2,269 letters of objection, fears about the impact to tourism jobs and were told about the impact on local communities caused by damage to the landscape and the noise and dust created".

So the fears were to tourism jobs not local jobs, now you can call me cynical but I would have thought that permanent full time jobs would be more beneficial to a local economy and as I've already said to 1,500 people in Cheshire.
Brakeman
16 years ago
Couldn't have put it better my self Toadstone, quite right.

It is a sad fact that due the current economic climate several of Derbyshires working quarries are closing, along with many heavy haulage drivers loosing work .

There will be no touristy type work to benifit the families of these men.

The area needs quality well paid skilled full time work for the future generations to survive.

So yes it is great news, whether like me you live in Cheshire OR like some of my friends you live & work in Derbyshire.
The management thanks you for your co operation.
Jasonbirder
16 years ago
Quite, open cast quarrying...dust...blasting...heavy lorries...exactly what we need in one of our few national parks!
JohnnearCfon
16 years ago
"Jasonbirder" wrote:

Quite, open cast quarrying...dust...blasting...heavy lorries...exactly what we need in one of our few national parks!



"Blasting will be required on approximately a monthly basis to loosen the rock so that the fluorspar and limestone will be separated. Blasting and haulage would be excluded from Saturday activity, and no operations will take place on Sundays or public holidays."

Blasting on a monthly basis hardly seems excessive, even if it is in a national park!
sougher
16 years ago
AR - Many thanks for letting me know this mineral application was approved by the Peak Park Planning Board. I no longer live nearby, so abstained from making any comments or objections, especially with the present economic situation in the country with the heavy loss of jobs. However, I remember the destruction and mess that was caused with the illegal opencasting (without planning consent - see my earlier postings about Tearsall) of Tearsall in the late 1970's early 1980's. It was an indiscrimminate rape of the countryside, with no consideration for the remains of old lead mine workings, artifacts, flora and fauna, or the public in the area. When the Peak Park Authority finally got down to sorting out planning consents for the legal extraction of fluorspar and associated gangue minerals the authority granted permission for 27 opencast sites on Bonsall Moor (I deposited the Peak Park paperwork shewing these sites on Bonsall Moor where planning permission was eventually granted, along with my records and those of my old caving friends with the Derbyshire Record Office in 2000 when I left Derbyshire). At the height of the extraction the situation was horrendous, once we counted at least twenty two heavy lorries driving across the Moor exiting and entering (spar was taken to two processing plants (1) Dresser Minerals at Rhyder Point above the Via Gellia and (2), Cavendish Mill at Stoney Middleton) no effort was made to clean mud off the road, I stopped in a lay-bye to let a laden lorry pass and my lwb Land Rover had mud up to it's hubs! The main road (Bonsall Lane) across the Moor and the unclassified highways leading off it, which gave access to a lot of these sites, is only single track with passing places, the lorry drivers drove like the clappers of hell, some even taking a short cut down through Bonsall which was illegal Thank goodness the Peak Park has now seen reason about getting sites reinstated these days, and hopefully supervises the extraction of the mineral i.e. fluorspar for which the planning consent has been granted. This site exits from the north onto Bonsall Lane at Brightgate, the lorry route between the site and Cavendish Mill goes westwards along this narrow, winding lane with passing places down to the main Ashbourne/Bakewell T junction, (incidently the line of an old turnpike and the old Port Way - hence Portaway mine at Elton which lies on the line of the ancient track). The rest of the route to the A6 then follows a very narrow, bendy, steep descending road, with a bad crossroads between Winster and Elton intersecting it, down to Hawley's Bridge and out to the A6 at Picory Corner.

I am not a newcomer to the Peak Park, I regularly walked, climbed and caved in it in my youth when if you used Youth Hostels as we did, one had to get there under one's own steam, i.e. cycling or walking - no motor cars or buses, not like today when they seem to be super hotels compared to the hostels of old. I was born in Derby, lived there for 31 years and the Peak District for 25 years. My ancestors came from the Peak i.e Ashford-in-the-Water, Youlgreave, Over Haddon, Bakewell, Bonsall, Cromford, Wirksworth, Tissington. Over the years I have seen the rural life in the Peak District and it's indigenous people eroded away by outsiders moving in, taking over their cottages, often for holiday cottages thus emptying the village of village life and customs because young people could not afford the high house prices and remain within the village,the consequence of this caused old trades and industries to die out. As you say Toadstone tourism has taken over as one of the main industries which is wrong -there is still a lot of quarrying.

I have spoken to my old spar mining friend whom I have known since 1956, many times about Tearsall. He comes from Elton is now 76 and has been sparring since he was 17, his two uncles were spar miners and one had a processing plant at Portaway mine. He's worked at many sites including Bonsall Moor, Tearsall, Jugholes, Low Mine, Masson Hill, and Moss Rake etc. etc.. He has always said that there is hardly any fluorspar, if any, at Tearsall, the main mineral found there is calcite. He always contends that the Peak Park was duped into believing that fluorspar was found at this site, in order for the owners to work the limestone and turn it into a limestone quarry (perhaps planning wouldn't then have been granted in the first instance) - much of the limestone quarried was transported eastwards to the sugar beet factories in Lincolnshire. He says that fluorspar was found at Ashover, Crich, Masson Hill but gave way to calcite the futher west one moved away from Masson Hill. When it was first opencasted we used to visit the site and found very large specimans of dogtooth calcite at Tearsall, we found very little evidence of fluorspar, the dark blue variety was found more in the centre of the Moor. My friend worked on Bonsall Moor (he was responsible for buying the two little dinosaur cranes which have been abandoned on the Moor)and with two partners he excavated the open rake that can be found on Bonsall Lees. White Low (where workings can be seen) further to the west on the Moor, is called White Low because of the high calcite content of the vein. If my friend is proved right and hardly any fluorspar deposits are found, will the Peak Park then stop the workings? It would be very interesting to know.

I remember in the 1950's with my club exploring the Tearsall mine before opencasting took place and destroyed the workings, (from memory) it was a walk in mine, with a series of low caverns connected to each other. Anyone interested in the history of this area can find further information in the Peak District Mines Historical Society's Bulletins:-

PDMHS Bulletin Vol. 1, No. 6; May, 1962 pp 3-14 "Tearsall and Dalefield Soughs, Wensley" by Nellie Kirkham;

PDMHS Bulletin Vol 5, No. 6; October, 1974 pp 373-382
"A survey pf a mine in Tearsall Rough, Wensley" by Roger Flindall.

PDMHS Bulletin Vol.12, No1, - a joint publication with the UK Journal of Mines and Minerals No.13 Autumn - Winter, 1993. pp 16-55 "The Minerals of the Peak District of Derbyshire" by Dr. Trevor D. Ford, Dr. William A. S. Sarjeant and Michael E. Smith. pp 29-31 Fluorite

The webpage containing the Public Engagement Report that was produced after the public consulation held in Darley Dale is:- www.tearsall.co.uk/downloads/Community Engagement Report.pdf If people don't attend public consultations then they only have themselves to blame if they are inconvenienced afterwards. We attended the public consulation a few years ago in Matlock when it was proposed to build a Sainsbury's Supermarket in Megdale quarry, it's a good job we did as they proposed building directly above the line of Seven Rakes sough, and had no idea of it's existance.

Finally I am pleased to hear that Milldam is reopening. Nick Hardy the manager took three of us down in his Toyota pick-up in the early 1990's. I understood that when he parked up we were beneath Black Hole mine, an interesting trip.


toadstone
16 years ago
Sougher ----- what a brilliant post thank you for sharing your experiences and views. It will be interesting to see how things turn out at Bonsall.

I can't remember as far back as yourself Sougher but I first lived in the PDNP at Longnor in the mid 60's. I would concur that in the past quarries in particular were indeed very cavalier in their dealings within the environment from which they gained their reward. The trip from Longnor to Buxton passed by Hindlow and Dowlow. Sometimes you could not tell what season it was as everything was white and when it rained the lime spread even further. Today the quarry owners take pride in returning their workings back to as far as is possible to natural landscape.

As for the wagons, it was no different wherever you were believe me. I think it was 68/69 when 2 lime wagons apparently ended up aside each other in the centre of Buxton approaching the London Road Pub with disastrous consequences, one wagon embedding itself in the frontage of a butchers shop. The shop collapsed and it was only about 18 months ago did they rebuild on the site, nearly 40 years on.

Thanks again.
AR
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16 years ago
Sougher - one of the things which held this up was getting the environmental details to a standard the PDNPA officer felt sufficient, but Glebe have held good on reinstatement conditions on other sites, for example the Winster Moor site up near the Miner's Standard. I'd also imagine that the permisison contains quite tight conditions about how much limestone can be removed when getting at the spar given the ongoing dispute at Bleaklow (which is due to go to the appeal court next week, I think). Ecology-wise, it's sometimes surprising how quickly a dug-out rake can recover. Catsall rake above Calver was sparred back in the 70s, but whe the ground was looked at by an ecologist recently, they found such a varied plant community that they thought it was hundreds of years old, and had to be shown old air photos of the site to prove how young it was!

Waggie - you're right, I'm forgetting that the 1851 act doesn't cover ownership and removal of gangue minerals from a site while a mine is in operation. I just hope they get it sorted, and I'll be interested to see if they end up draining the High Rake shaft!
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
Brakeman
16 years ago
"AR" wrote:


I'll be interested to see if they end up draining the High Rake shaft!



I don'tknow if they are going to take it that far east, I think the new ground will be down dip towards Bradwell.
The management thanks you for your co operation.
waggy
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16 years ago
"redlion" wrote:

"AR" wrote:


I'll be interested to see if they end up draining the High Rake shaft!



I don'tknow if they are going to take it that far east, I think the new ground will be down dip towards Bradwell.



Yep I believe they intend to head down towards netherwater mine on an intersect they have test drilled down that way anyhow
[i]I am always upto my neck in it!
derrickman
16 years ago
I think 'skilled, full time jobs' are the key words

I've had a long ( if intermittent ) association with Cornwall and watched the decline of the mining there, I studied at CSM and worked at Geevor, S Crofty and Mt Wellington at various times. I can't say the present situation is an improvement.

Camborne in the early 70s was a dirty, noisy sh*t-hole, but it was a busy, prosperous sh*t-hole with some good wages being earned year-round, and a lot of people in work on the back of that.

I don't understand what is going on at S Crofty because I'm too far out of the loop of local politics, but if someone can employ skilled miners at proper wages, and the hauliers who drive the stuff out the gate, and the local merchants and small businesses who service the operation, good luck to 'em sez I.

I stand to be corrected on this, because I know some people say it isn't viable, Mark Twain could still be proved right I suppose.


I don't hold any particular brief for the environmental consciences of mineral companies, that's for sure. I've worked in Alaska, Kazakhstan, west Africa, the North Sea and the US at one time or another. These people DO need a bit of a slap round the legs from time to time, but they usually respond, more or less.

an ARC tipper driver wearing Dickie's overalls and a roadworkers' hi-vis coat, eating a bacon sarnie from a scruffy caravan in a layby may not be as picturesque as a re-enactor in a 'poldark' hat handing out tourist leaflets in Buxton for minimum wage four months a year, but he's AT LEAST as 'authentic' a part of the area's 'mining heritage'.








''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
minerat
16 years ago
makes you wonder why they want to mine limestone when there is a disused quarry just down the road from Tearsall, which now must have "ecological" reasons for not reopening it, some non desript moss or a wild ferret or something will be in the way.
Good luck to Glebe Mines in their venture, its a Derbyshire "thing"..mining, long may they continue to produce and employ people and produce products this country badly need, why import when we have it in our own lands.
be afraid.....very afraid !!!!
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