Folks,

I've been down a fair amount of holes and seen a fair amount of bats, shaft capping has been pretty quiet in the area for a while and the ones which are open have recently been fitted with dual-purpose man/bat access cages. Very nice jobs indeed.

A very interesting mine is about to be plugged with concrete and negating the ventilation aspect this shaft has with adjacent mines (which also have marginal air) I recall reading that this particular shaft was too small to admit bats. We are talking in the order of 4.5x5.5ft.

I gather bats need to "circle" in order to descend shafts. I have observed this firsthand in big shafts. I am pretty damn certain that I've seen bats in shafts which are footway sized.

The cone over this particular shaft was covered up with a tarpaulin following a bat survey (which the relevant people are having problems locating-oddly enough) in order to stop admitting bats. This has been removed for about 18 months now.

It would be exceedingly poor form for a developer to cover up a bat habitat with a tarpaulin, on the back of a flimsy report which states "the shaft is too small for bats to circle in".

So, cutting the crap, what's the minimum area of a shaft you have observed bats in?

I'm sure they don't have problems with small shafts.

Over to you.

(I haven't been bothered to go into the top of the stoping in this mine as it's not very interesting, however, if there is a possibility of bats being in there, I'd hate for it to be plugged)

I once explorered a section of a mine that had only at that time become accessible due to someones digging. (not mine)

There were a huge number of bats in there and a mound of droppings about 4 feet high indicating a very old roost. The thing that puzzled me and has ever since was that there was no obvious way into there.
Later falls have resealed the area.


I am not prepared to state, or even give a hint of the location of this place, so no PMs please.

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I know of two sites in the South East where bats have gained entry to old workings via shafts made the size of a 40 gallon drum. Thats little more than 2 ft I think. The shafts, however, are no more than 15 ft deep. These are Myotis bats, not horseshoes, which might be an important consideration?

Sounds like a story I've heard. They most certainly make it down winzes thinking of the mine with the skiproad and cistern in the shaft. (the same one? )

Peter, I have no idea what the bats are which could be in this particular place, however, I can produce (with difficulty) a skeleton of one!

A bat is a bat as far as I'm concerned. Bloody things! (lol)

Some observations. They can easily manage 60+ feet of 3 foot diameter shaft, they can also easily manage 4 feet of vertical 12 inch pipe!

the caged shaft at Combe Down was about 6m in diameter and 12 or 14m deep. There were various entries which were gated, generally about 3m x 4m, that sort of size. However bats will get in just about anywhere, sooner or later.

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Recommend posting your query on ukc as well.

Saw three or four bats (no idea what species) emerging from a c.12ft deep body-size tube with small crawls at the base and the top in Ogof Pwll Swnd.

The finger is pointing towards the developers not doing a proper report after someone saying "the shaft is too small for bats to circle" and then putting a tarp over it for good measure. The council then making some enquiries and the paperwork not being in the right place and it all going ahead without anyone making a fuss.

It sounds like a load of **** to me. Bearing in mind the demand for industrial units has gone totally and utterly through the floor.

But with the RDA, it's not their money, I suppose.

I should think something like a Pipistrelle (dubious spelling) would need less room to circle in than a Greater Horseshoe bat.
I've seen Pips' in Pensendane Gt Work and that shaft is not large at all.
More corporate 'No Bats Here' propaganda.....after all, It's cheaper! :curse: :curse: :guns: :guns:

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Will ask the wife, who works at the CEC/CWT in Allet - they have Bat specialists who have montitored bats down shafts with cameras....

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The loss of this site has been imminent for years and everyone always says "Ahhh, it'll never happen, but it is".

We found it highly odd how the clwyd cap had been covered over with a tarpaulin.

🔗HALLENBEAGLE-Mine-User-Album-Image-61948[linkphoto]HALLENBEAGLE-Mine-User-Album-Image-61948[/linkphoto][/link]

After removing this and the cotoneaster from the shaft mouth, we dropped it and went into this.

🔗HALLENBEAGLE-Mine-User-Album-Image-62292[linkphoto]HALLENBEAGLE-Mine-User-Album-Image-62292[/linkphoto][/link]

The bottom of the shaft is choked with sawdust and there are 2 levels higher up which are short and go into narrow stoping with bat dung in there. The bottom level continues into bad air towards the engine house (bad air due to sulphides and sawdust) and the other way towards the footway has breathable air with some holes into stoping above and below. The closer you get to the footway, the clearer the air becomes.

Here is a skyshot of what's what on the site now. (Thankyou google)

🔗HALLENBEAGLE-Mine-User-Album-Image-62290[linkphoto]HALLENBEAGLE-Mine-User-Album-Image-62290[/linkphoto][/link]

....and here's how the shafts will be obscured.

🔗HALLENBEAGLE-Mine-User-Album-Image-62291[linkphoto]HALLENBEAGLE-Mine-User-Album-Image-62291[/linkphoto][/link]

Sticking a camera down the shaft will show you nothing apart from a 2 levels off the shaft which peer into a stope which you can't see much in, unless you go down and then a shaft station at about -120ft. On the footwall of the shaft on the way down, there are several birds nests made of mud which I've never seen in any other shaft.

There is a pile of what appears to be bat poo in one of the drives from the shaft.

I'd like to see that these 2 shafts get caged in the name of a habitat rather than plugged and I've been rattling a few cages about it (lol) however, it seems to be a done deal.

I'd rather not put photos of bats up (as people start getting excited) but I have a good one of a small skeleton, which is interesting. Not sure what it is, but it looks batty.

As far as a mine trip goes, there is nothing much to see down there for the extreme explorer apart from a bit of stoping and a few old ladders in a tunnel with pretty marginal oxygen.


Edited to add:- If they do monitor the shaft, they will probably find what they wanted to, ie:- there were no bats. This of course would be the case as the shaft cap was covered by a tarpaulin until quite recently. However, the evidence of bats in the form of a skeleton (have to bring it up to prove it) and bat poo would suggest it was a habitat prior to them putting a tarpaulin over it

Obviously, this last fact would be pretty damning as far as the officials are concerned.

Edited to remove the bat skeleton photo. Possibly a legal grey area.

Proposed development is usually the determining factor.

Combe Down was a unique situation because (a) it was a World Heritage Area (b) it was too far off the transport network (c) it is not far from Bristol, which has more industrial spec development than it knows what to do with already (d) there was and is, a lot of property which is very valuable provided that the stabilisation costs could be pushed onto a third party.

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Apparently this site is under investigation by Bat Surveyors who are questioning the orginal report, ie not enough winter surveys done etc. So looks likely you are not alone in querying what is being done here and might be worth contacting CEC if you have some further evidence, if you wish to do so.

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re Shaft size - apparently the minimum for a greater horseshoe is about 500x400mm, but I got this info 2nd hand, so it may only refer to entrance size rather than the average diameter all the way down.

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I've just remembered that we saw bats in a mine which had been collared with an old boiler, whose diameter was about 4ft and about 20ft long.

I don't mind going back down and having a right old evidence gathering session as it's not a monster task.

I really can't see the problem as the shafts don't seem to be under any buildings and the castles aren't exactly super duper overkill.

I suppose there is a much more simple way of looking at this, the bats can get through a batcastle. These often have a big section of concrete rings which can be 10ft+ or so deep. The bats can get through these ok, so a small hoisting sized shaft shouldn't be a problem.

I do however look forward to them looking sorting out the engine house, as it really needs it.

In the 1950's/60's when we were exploring disused Derbyshire lead mines which hadn't been accessed for many, many years, bats were often found underground, their way of exiting the mines were often by very small narrow shafts the dimensions of which I have long since forgotten. However, I find bats fasinating creatures (we discussed bats in another Forum topic "Stunning photos of bats feeding" on 17/09/2009) and I have been surfing this morning to find out more about Cornwall's bats (sadly only having visited Cornwall once in my life). The following websites contain lots of information regarding bat protection and where you can seek advice and help, they are as follows:-

Cornwall Bat Group,
Cornwall Bat Conservation Trust,
Cornwall Wildlife Trust,
English Nature.

Apparently according to the Cornwall Bat Group website there are 16 species of bats found in the U.K. of which 12 species have been recorded in Cornwall. The Cornwall Bat Conservation Trust's website gives the legislation that bats are protected under. These websites offer advice with bat problems and ask that they are contacted for help.

I have a bat book "The Lives of Bats" by B.W.Yalker and P.A. Morris, published by David and Charles in 1975 which contains full details of bats, it's very interesting for anyone wanting to know more information about these small mammals.

I wonder how long it takes the bats to "come back" after their access point has been sealed.

Also, I wonder what the capping scheme is if there is evidence that it was a bat roost (dead bats and guano) but due to the interference is no longer a roost.

Obviously, the answer is "They'll probably do it anyway", but it has to be worth rattling a few cages.

I know this is anecdotal, but I've watched a small bat fly up and down a climbing shaft about 0.75m diameter, so they can potentially use quite small shafts to get to roosts. I may also see some of the Derbyshire Bat Group members at a meeting tomorrow, if so I'll try and pick their brains about this and also whether covering the clwyd cap with a tarp constitutes unauthorised blocking of a roost access under the 1981 act....

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The subject of long term access is also worth considering.
Cligga for instance is totaly bereft of bats in the summer months, yet in the winter time I've counted in excess of 75 at roost.

Covering entrances in the hope that they will go away is unacceptable.
The same happened at Wheal Bucketts where two open shafts were capped by the landowner and a large community of bats either trapped in or shut out. Either way, this is interference with a protected species, and if it were you or I they would have our asses on the block.

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yes unfortunately this seems to be happening more as the legislation attempts to protect the bats and their habitat to a higher degree and so it makes financial sense to try and 'get round' the issue and keep people from knowing there ever were bats living on a site set for redevelopment.

I have passed this to someone who may be able to flag up a concern and as a registered independent bat warden he has no agenda and a little influence with things.

he has informed me that Lesser horseshoe bats will fly up & down 30cm/dia vertical fues/pipes etc, Greater horseshoes can certainly do 50cm/dia, Long-eared and Natterer's could manage 1m or bit less and other species would require more room. in short this shaft is perfectly acceptable for bats to access.

I will be taking it up with natural England shortly as they have the power to sort the matter out, prosecute and suspend the works!

Ferret