Pyrite eating bacteria/O2 levels in mines. · Page 2

Morlock
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15 years ago

"stuey" wrote:
What is odd is that Hot Lode, which was clearly being oxidised to acid, among other things didn't require lined pumps.

If the pumps were cast iron the acid will have an effect varying with concentration and temperature, amongst other complex issues.
I seem to recall that lower concentrations are the most destructive?

skippy
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15 years ago

#22

Stuey has an interesting point - a lot of the mines we opened and explored in the area - including Norseman gold mine, were filled with the most amazing gypsum crystals when drained. At Norseman, we had to mine them out of the levels - crystals up to 2 feet long and thick as your arm - we put a load of them in the West Australian museum, and gave them away to allcomers - incredible things!

The Meek Shall Inherit The Earth

... but not the Mineral Rights...

JR
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15 years ago

#23

"Morlock" wrote:

"stuey" wrote:
What is odd is that Hot Lode, which was clearly being oxidised to acid, among other things didn't require lined pumps.

If the pumps were cast iron the acid will have an effect varying with concentration and temperature, amongst other complex issues.
I seem to recall that lower concentrations are the most destructive?

Couldn't another factor be the position of various metals in the periodic table? In such circumstances more reactive metals like iron become,in effect 'sacrificial anodes' in a gold mine yet in other circumstances iron would be the 'winner' in, say a tin or copper mine? Or have I just made myself look like a muppet by misunderstanding Mendeleyev?

sleep is a caffeine deficiency.

stuey
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15 years ago

#24

Iron isn't pretty reactive stuff, however in H2SO4 laden water, it's pretty soluble. As in there is no protective layer of oxide, no matter how thin formed and the reaction proceeds pretty quickly.

I gather that the pumps were lined with brass, which I suppose would be less reactive, but still dissolve gradually into brass sulphates.

Since H2SO4 is about the most polar solvent you can get and the chemicals produced are polar themselves, I can't see why lower concentrations of acid would contribute to a faster reaction. Temp dependent as well.

Nangiles was pretty wet judging by it's 70" engine and modestish depth. United was very wet indeed. Ahaaaaa, here you go. I gather the gossan at Nangiles was pretty gossany/pyrite laden. If there was a relative absence of copper, you would get higher levels of acid (and less copper sulphate formation). I assume that whilst pyrite oxidation was responsible for a fair degree of heat, if there was perhaps enough "other reactions" with the acid resulting in salt formation and a more user-friendly mine water.

If this was the case, it may be possible that the inside of the pumps built up a layer of their own copper (hence protection from the displacement of sulphate from the iron) faster than any acid in the water could dissolve it.

Morlock
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15 years ago

#25

"JR" wrote:

"Morlock" wrote:

"stuey" wrote:
quote]
Couldn't another factor be the position of various metals in the periodic table? In such circumstances more reactive metals like iron become,in effect 'sacrificial anodes' in a gold mine yet in other circumstances iron would be the 'winner' in, say a tin or copper mine? Or have I just made myself look like a muppet by misunderstanding Mendeleyev?

Possibly one of the factors, not my strong point Chemistry.

Morlock
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15 years ago

#26

"stuey" wrote:

I gather that the pumps were lined with brass, which I suppose would be less reactive, but still dissolve gradually into brass sulphates.

Since H2SO4 is about the most polar solvent you can get and the chemicals produced are polar themselves, I can't see why lower concentrations of acid would contribute to a faster reaction. Temp dependent as well.

it.

Presumably the sulphates of brass are sulphates of copper and zinc?

On the iron issue I seem to remember that some industrial process (cannot remember which), used iron retorts as they were resistant to concentrated H2SO4 but not the more dilute acid.

Try battery acid on limestone, then try some concentrated stuff, an unexpected result (for me anyway).

Cat_Bones
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15 years ago

#27

"Morlock" wrote:
Two close encounters with low O2, one in Harecastle Rail Tunnel whilst in a side heading to the derelict canal tunnel and the other under Dudley Zoo.
The zoo incident was possibly something given off by the copious amount of animal manure which had found its way down there. 😉

I'd read that there was a lot of horrible things down there... do the zoo still dispose of dead animals down there? Is there anything still accessible under the zoo? I'm really gutted I got into this stuff a bit too late to see the stuff under Dudley before it all got infilled 😞

stuey
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15 years ago

#28

Brass sulphates 😉

Not sure about conc sulphuric acid and iron retorts. V strong sulphuric acid (oleum) contains dissolved SO3 which may produce another variety of sulphate which is perhaps more insoluble and protects the iron.

I also recall that the structure of cast iron has a low "surface area" if you can imagine such a thing ! It doesn't tend to get etched (and then react like hell). More dilute acid would most certainly favour the sulphate (really soluble one! can't remember which! )

I remember a mate of mine putting a beaker of oleum down the sink. It made a big volcano with boiling water and then black smoke. Always add acid to water, not the other way around, which this was in effect!

Morlock
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15 years ago

#29

"Cat_Bones" wrote:

"Morlock" wrote:
Two close encounters with low O2, one in Harecastle Rail Tunnel whilst in a side heading to the derelict canal tunnel and the other under Dudley Zoo.
The zoo incident was possibly something given off by the copious amount of animal manure which had found its way down there. 😉

I'd read that there was a lot of horrible things down there... do the zoo still dispose of dead animals down there? Is there anything still accessible under the zoo? I'm really gutted I got into this stuff a bit too late to see the stuff under Dudley before it all got infilled :(

Ah yes, the dead elephant fiasco. 😉

I'll check around next time I'm in the area. I should think the WW2 storage cavern with the brick admin block is still there, possibly the bit under the bear pit as well.
I think most of the Wren's Nest area has been filled, also the proposed re-opening of the Wren's Nest Tunnel is on hold since it failed to attract lottery funding.

These guy's will know.

http://www.dudleycavingclub.org.uk/

Let me know of any additional info if you contact the club first.

Morlock
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15 years ago

#30

"stuey" wrote:
I remember a mate of mine putting a beaker of oleum down the sink. It made a big volcano with boiling water and then black smoke. Always add acid to water, not the other way around, which this was in effect!

Darwin award? 😉 :lol:

A mill I worked at used battery acid to control process water Ph. A semi bulk container of oleum was inadvertantly connected up and the dosage pump started, the plastic pipework was a sight to behold.

stuey
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15 years ago

#31

"Morlock" wrote:

"stuey" wrote:
I remember a mate of mine putting a beaker of oleum down the sink. It made a big volcano with boiling water and then black smoke. Always add acid to water, not the other way around, which this was in effect!

Darwin award? 😉 :lol:

A mill I worked at used battery acid to control process water Ph. A semi bulk container of oleum was inadvertantly connected up and the dosage pump started, the plastic pipework was a sight to behold.

The most entertaining bit was when he tried to block the smoke/boiling water/acid with a bit of tissue paper. The whole thing started gurgling and when his hand started burning with the acid, running more cold water into the sink created a resumption of the smoking "geyser". :lol:

My claim to fame was chucking a piece of potassium the size of a childs fist off the tyne bridge. For such a small piece of stuff, it was like armageddon below. Anyway, those were the days :tongue:

Morlock
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15 years ago

#32

quote]For such a small piece of stuff, it was like armageddon below. Anyway, those were the days :tongue:

Good old days. 😉

Cat_Bones
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15 years ago

#33

"Morlock" wrote:

Ah yes, the dead elephant fiasco. 😉

I'll check around next time I'm in the area. I should think the WW2 storage cavern with the brick admin block is still there, possibly the bit under the bear pit as well.
I think most of the Wren's Nest area has been filled, also the proposed re-opening of the Wren's Nest Tunnel is on hold since it failed to attract lottery funding.

These guy's will know.

http://www.dudleycavingclub.org.uk/

Let me know of any additional info if you contact the club first.

Thanks Morlock. I've dropped them a mail on the off-chance.
I'm gutted that by the time I learnt about the existence of the Seven Sisters, they'd been heavily fenced off and all I could see of them was the top of one of the caverns poking above the fence!

Morlock
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15 years ago

#34

Cat_Bones, not sure if this will be of interest, next to one of the Dudley Tunnel basins, Shirts Mill (I think).
The fence in the pic is the anti-sniper screen for the trip boats. 😉
It may be nothing but it does have a ventilation furnace look about part of it.
🔗Personal-Album-1695-Image-46182[linkphoto]Personal-Album-1695-Image-46182[/linkphoto][/link]

🔗Personal-Album-1695-Image-46180[linkphoto]Personal-Album-1695-Image-46180[/linkphoto][/link]

🔗Personal-Album-1695-Image-46181[linkphoto]Personal-Album-1695-Image-46181[/linkphoto][/link]

:offtopic:

derrickman
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15 years ago

#35

"Morlock" wrote:
quote]For such a small piece of stuff, it was like armageddon below. Anyway, those were the days :tongue:

Good old days. 😉

life's no fun anymore

hands up anyone who has 'popped' a rock on a grizzly using a sliver of explosive and a sledge?

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.

stuey
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15 years ago

#36

"derrickman" wrote:

"Morlock" wrote:
quote]For such a small piece of stuff, it was like armageddon below. Anyway, those were the days :tongue:

Good old days. 😉

life's no fun anymore

hands up anyone who has 'popped' a rock on a grizzly using a sliver of explosive and a sledge?

Not quite, but I have hit about 1/4tsp of potassium chlorate/sulphur at 1:1 with a lump hammer. Makes a shotgun sound like whispering!

I nearly shat myself and I had allsorts of staff "pop in" to see if everyone was ok. I think it's one of the only chemistry demo's which is actually fully 100% banned (it wasn't at the time 😉 )

The other one using sulphur was the magnesium/sulphur "flash". Someone said "Since sulphur is beneath oxygen in the periodic table, would it make a massive flash if you lit a mixture of it? " Funnily enough, I had some and decided to "give it a go". My particular approach to explosive hazards was that if it was less than you could stack on a 2p, it was probably safe enough to set off"

Anyway, I lit it and was exceedingly disappointed that there was only a second rate blue flame of the burning sulphur, despite having cleaned the Mg powder with acid and dried it. So, I poked it with my spatula taped to a meter ruler. What happened next was my sight went and all I could see was bright green! That was a mother of all flashes. "Sir, I can't see" "It's ok, your sight will come back in a bit".

(anyway, it is possible to make oneself sound reckless and dangerous with a couple of anecdotes) :lol: