I have been recently been made aware that some underground explorers have been venturing into mines with inappropriate and inadequate PPE,for example, trainers and woolly hats. To me this raises some important issues. The lack of PPE can only reflect on the competence level with which the whole u/g environment is being approached. When somebody has an accident as a result of these poor practices, with the inevitable publicity then this may have a serious effect on the access that we all currently enjoy. I am speaking as someone with 35 years u/g experience, have been a member of a mine rescue team, and am a member of a coastguard team. Therefore i have seen first hand what can happen as a result of accidents and poor practice. Ihope this starts a debate with the aim of educating these irresponsible people.

Hi Colin
I am an underground explorer with a reasonable amount of experience and have to endorse fully what you are saying. When these people get into trouble, which invariably they will sooner or later, then not unexpended the anti underground lobby will be out on full cry. In other words, when you know what hits the fan, guess where it all lands.
However, having said this, I know of no one who contributes to this website who falls into the category that you describe.

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Quite possible, but I've not seen evidence of that with any of the trips underground I've made in the last 3 years or so.

I have seen pictures like you describe elsewhere on the internet, but that tends to be sites for whom exploration of historic mines is not their primary focus.

Just in case anyone is in doubt, I've pushed up our recommended kit list onto the home page and will leave it there for a couple of weeks http://www.aditnow.co.uk/community/viewtopic.aspx?t=442 

If you have any suggestions Colin, please feel free to add them to that topic and the list in the first post can be amended 🙂

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Thanks for the replies. Roy i agree that it's nobody that uses this site. I'll see if Geoff can post the St. Just MRG code of practise for info.

It is my experience that if you attempt to engage with these people when you meet them rather than chastise them, they often welcome being introduced to a group of mine explorers where they can continue their pursuit, and take on board better practices. There is nothing to be lost by trying, and those who choose to go their own way won't listen anyway. Some of those who I have explored with over the years started out like this and are now valuable members of the mine-exploring fraternity. My first introduction to the underground was a group led by a very well respected person in NAMHO circles, back in 1975. The advice to us and to others joining that group of visitors to explore a drift mine with a low roof was find a crash-helmet, or failing that a woolly hat stuffed with newspaper! I found a crash-helmet. Safety considerations have changed over the years, but I wouldn't have called that trip in 1975 irresponsible as we were led with due care and attention, and the mine itself is level and easy to walk around despite the low roof. Circumstances can be wildly different between various sites. Our leaders from 1975 did not suddenly become sensible and insist on 'proper' equipment, they have just moved over time with the change in expectations for safety matters. So people who explore places equipped as you describe are not necessarily idiots, they are acting within the reasonable expectations of a past era without being aware of it. Whether they choose to accept the advice of 'wiser' people is a measure of how well they will progress into mine-exploring as they seek different and more challenging places to explore.

Vanoord is right about much of the worst practice being on sites not exclusively for mine exploration however there is some cross over of personel onto other mine exploration sites. The internet has been great for generating enthusiasm from a new generation but it has an unfortunate side effect of encouraging a degree of competition to outdo each other for extreme activity.

Many people visit these sites looking for help getting started with mine exploration so it is a pity there are so many examples of poor practice presented both in pictures and written form. Hard lessons were learned in the world of caving long ago we don't want to see a new generation of underground explorers learning these lessons again particularly given the knock on effect on access that is inevitable should things go wrong.

I agree with everything that has been said in this topic so far, but ...

We need to be careful that we do not foster the view that all that is needed is the 'proper kit'. All the wonderful kit in the world is no substitute for an awareness of the dangers of the environment you are in (be it abandoned mines, caves, the hills or the sea).

As well as the kit you need the skill to use it - probably built up over a number of years by a combination of (a) going with experienced people, (b) sensible and cautious exploration in the company of other novices and (c) reading everything you can on the subject.

Dave (who started exploring local caves with school friends after reading the book Underground Adventure)

i think putting the list of gear on the front page has to be a good idea as i think most of us will have started out as clueless newbs in the begining (unless mining was in the family) and pointers to at least some basic gear has to be a help, but as stated above the gear is only the start,knowledge of mines and their dangers has to be learned,false floors/gas/hanging death/effects of exposure to cold water and more are all things we are unconsiously aware off now but a novice might not even think about.

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I have seen pics on other mine forums and UE sites where there have been a mix of non helmet users and in the same group people with helmets on, including kids with no head protection - my mind boggles at this.

List of gear - a good idea!

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I have seen pics on other mine forums and UE sites where there have been a mix of non helmet users and in the same group people with helmets on, including kids with no head protection - my mind boggles at this.

I have to say Mike, you will often (the majority of the time in fact) find me not wearing a helmet.

Initially this was because of what might be called ignorance. However, since then it evolved into a conscious decision. My thougts and reasoning are as folows. I do not do SRT nor some of the more "extreme" explorations. I have found from experience I knock my head on things far far more when wearing a helmet than when not, in fact I can only remember knocking my head once when not wearing a helmet. Taking this one step further, in knocking my head with a helmet on I am far more likely to cause myself problems than otherwise i.e. disturbing loose roof material timbers etc. The places I go (mainly slate mines) if any rock was to land on my head a helmet would make little or no difference, I would still be dead!

There are of course exceptions to the above. For instance the working parties at Cwmorthin where a "working activity" is going on, and a few mines I consider a helmet more desirable. One more thing if I do wear a helmet it always has a chin strap.

I might add, the first time I was shown round a working mine (over 30 years ago) I didn't have a helmet on, nor did the mine manager who was showing me round!

I can understand your angle on what you say, if a snooker table size slab falls on you, your buggered, however if its the half brick sized rock (that I worry about) that falls then a helmet will make all the difference.

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My main concern is dislodging stuff though! I hit my head so hard once with ahelmet on that I jarred my neck quite a bit! I know, the answer to that is duck not grouse! 😉

In these days of health and safety and everything being patheticly risk assesed, i found it very odd that on the public tour of Wookey hole in Somerset helmets are not provided to the paying visitors. Ok, it is a big roomy place but there are 2 places where the guide warns you to duck your head because the roof is very low. If your not paying attention you will bang your head 😮

I think it is important to know the safety issues and have a knowladge of the enviroment you are going into. Also one of the most important things is that you are happy and relaxed being underground in whatever mine or cave you are going into.
I took a lad from work and his cousin down Cwmorthin a few months ago. When I noticed one of the lads was getting a bit aggitated and concerned that the water from the lake might gush into the mine. I told him it would not, but whenever he heard the sound of water he was getting more nervous. So in the end I took them out as it was getting to be a bad day.
If a person is nervous or afraid of being in certain situations, I think it is best not to venture and do something else.

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I have just noticed this thread while browsing the forum. I found some trip reports on a website whilst searching for info about a mine on Google. I was curious and had a look and couldn't believe it. These people were actually down mines using what looked like a very dodgy Energiser style headlamp and no hard hat at all!

I really don't understand anyone who would go into conditions like that without head protection. Everytime I have been in a mine I bang my head constantly, so I love my hard hat!

All the gear in the world won't help you if you aren't aware of your surroundings and the risks associated with them.

And if you are aware of these factors, you will probably decide to wear a helmet for the vast majority of your trips.

And if you are aware of these factors, you will probably decide to wear a helmet for the vast majority of your trips.

More than likely.
However the point still stands, awareness of your surroundings is something you cannot buy and seems to be the most neglected safety factor.

The Cumbria Amenity Trust (CAT), of which I am currently the Meets Secretary has debated at length underground safety and the kit needed. I detail below a site which advises how we grade meets and the kit we recommend to members.

http://www.catmhs.org.uk/risk.php 

Feel free to copy and use this if its of any help.

[tweak]Link made clicky[/tweak]

I really don't understand anyone who would go into conditions like that without head protection. Everytime I have been in a mine I bang my head constantly, so I love my hard hat!

Can I draw Bigloada to the full explanation I posted earlier in this thread as to the reasoning behind why I seldom wear a helmet.