Vanoord
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17 years ago
"Jasonbirder" wrote:


Judging by many of the responses on this thread perhaps we should instead be discussing under what circumstances (if any) it is acceptable for artifacts to be left in-situ for mine-explorers to enjoy ?



That is, sir, a very good question! One for tomorrow, methinks!
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skippy
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17 years ago
Ouch... I'd better buy a longer rope and get ready to shovel a lot of s****t when I get to the bottom if I am to have any chance of seeing any artefacts then... 😞
The Meek Shall Inherit The Earth

... but not the Mineral Rights...
skippy
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17 years ago
Jimbo



Instead of embracing the rich history of the area the local authorities have done a fine job of destroying most of the mining remains over the last 20-30 years almost to the point of denying that the Cleveland Ironstone Mines & the massively important roll they played in the historical development of the area ever existed (in what was once the largest iron producing area in the World & the cornerstone of the Victorian Industrial Revolution) 😞



You just reminded me of the one and only time I took a safety lamp down a mine - we went down the big ironstone mine on the steep scarp face -Monument Mine - Great Ayton.. - huge decline with great big cast iron pipes running down it... halfway down the lamp went out. I lifted it up and re-lit it, dropped it by my side, and it went out. Re-lit and did the same - as I dropped it, the flame flickered --- we were walking into a pool of gas ... ouch..
The Meek Shall Inherit The Earth

... but not the Mineral Rights...
carnkie
17 years ago

Judging by many of the responses on this thread perhaps we should instead be discussing under what circumstances (if any) it is acceptable for artifacts to be left in-situ for mine-explorers to enjoy ?

Or perhaps we should be discussing more the need for support for more local museums/mines where everyone, including children, can better understand their industrial history. There is more to mining history than artefacts in situ. Or is this more about mine-explorers enjoyment (your words) than genuine interest in industrial heritage. From what I know about the people on this site I don't accept this.
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
hymac580c
17 years ago
Carnakie has got a good point there. Many mine explorers have no interest in industrial archeology, nor of the history of the mine. But want to go into the mine for the thrill and adventure of it. While others have an interest.
But then again many people develop an interest in the history of mines after being exploring. And vice versa.
I remember a mine somewhere in Flintshire about 20 ago being made into a military vehicle museum. I can recall going there and seing most exhibits like an army lorry and a halftrack were damp, mouldy and rusting in the damp atmosphere.
My last recollection of that place is that it closed down.
Not the ideal place for a museum I say.

Bellach dim ond swn y gwynt yn chwibian, lle bu gynt yr engan ar cynion yn tincian.
Moorebooks
17 years ago
NAMHO has recently been pushing Underground Archaeolgy and Artefact preservation as vitally important.

In France all abandoned metal mines are are gated and only bona fida arcaeolgists are allowed due to the very discussions we are having. I understand that you face criminal prosecution if access is gained. I don't suggest for one minute that this is the right way to go but if access is sensibly controlled to sensitive sites then preservation follows.

SCMC control access to Snailbeach, Clive and one or two lesser known sites in Shropshire - there is no problem with gaining access and damage/ theft is stopped.

I talk above of artefacts and not minerals as that ends up as pure vandalism anyone who has visited the Nenthead mines will know what I am talking about - these people are not Historians, Sport explorers or anything like. They are quite happy to pull down stacked deads, destroy archways, walls in the name of mineral preservation.

I was stunned that a galena Vug found in Carrs level - museum access level was hacked out of the roof if the minerals people can justify that one, but no doubt all the collectors will be eager to buy a lump!!!

Mike

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17 years ago
"Moorebooks" wrote:


I talk above of artefacts and not minerals as that ends up as pure vandalism anyone who has visited the Nenthead mines will know what I am talking about - these people are not Historians, Sport explorers or anything like. They are quite happy to pull down stacked deads, destroy archways, walls in the name of mineral preservation.

Sonmeone earlier mentioned I was stunned that a galena lug found in Carrs level - museum access level was hacked out of the roof if the minerals people can justify that one, but no doubt all the collectors will be eager to buy a lump!!!

Mike



I find this attitude very dismaying. For a while I collected minerals. Still do, but not often (the other half starts moaning about yet more "stones" filling up the house) and increasingly by purchase (nearest localities are too far away and petrol too dear). I never destroyed archways (sounds suicidal anyway) nor vandalised any artefacts etc. and am sure this is true of nearly all mineral collectors. As for them not being historians, I can think of several who are, and who got into the history side through their interest in minerals. They are also explorers, as they explore for minerals, and in the process may dig out mines.
On my last visit to Smallcleugh I saw plenty of mineral still there. Hetheringtons is full of pyrite, and sphalerite remains abundant. I didn't take any as I couldn't be bothered (they are common minerals and I already have good examples from long ago) and my trip was a sight-seeing one.
Now I have seen misbehaviour - vandalism even - by mine explorers who pull down stacked deads because there might be a level beyond, fill up shafts in the floor with waste from their excavations, thus blocking off whatever the shafts accessed, or ripping up rails to improvise a bridge across some hole in the floor, rather than bringing new materials in for the purpose. I do not complain, but accept it, and remind my self that one day the mine may collapse anyway, permanently entombing whatever artefacts and crystals remain. I note from elsewhere on this forum that a rather substantial run has recently occurred in Smallcleugh thereby sealing off a considerable portion of the workings. From the pic, the remaining arching looks dodgy and may deter attempts to dig it. If so then we should thank those "vandals" who in the past have collected minerals from beyond that fall and thereby saved them.
I don't know about the Carrs galena vug. If in a show mine then it is hard to justify. A show mine is the one venue where the ordinary public can get to safely see artefacts and crystals in their natural environment (well, as "natural" as a mine can be). I would, however, point out that few will buy a "lump" of galena, and if they did it would not be an experienced collector and it would be for pennies. Collectors seek good, undamaged crystals, not mere lumps. And in my experience Nenthead galena is commonplace, usually dull, and collectors are anything but "eager" to buy it. It may only be a modest consolation but whoever took the Carrs galena is unlikely to have benefitted!
Moorebooks
17 years ago

If there is a genuine in interest in a mineral I still fail to see why anyone should want to remove it. By hacking at a wall or whatever it will destroy the working face and archaelogy in its exact sense.

If you ignore the underground side of things and look at mine tips which again forms part of the archaeolgy these too have been picked over and many sites where you could find mineral remains these too have gone.

For the record the ransacking of Mineral from Nenthead is notorious and yes there may still be remains but not as the miners left it.

Mike
grahami
17 years ago
"AdrianP" wrote:

..... It is not lost forever - it is in the Matlock Mining Museum.



While not wishing to knock Matlock in any way, I'll just say:

Chatterley Whitfield, Buile Hill, Gloddfa Ganol, and dare I say Llechwedd (Robey... - oops, shouldn't have mentioned that again.)

Just because it's in a Museum now, I'm afraid it's not necessarily safe in the future....

Grahami
The map is the territory - especially in chain scale.
skippy
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17 years ago
I feel compelled to make a few comments:

Mike - you touch on Freedom here - its one thing to say that SCMC control access and anyone can go in - but they can't .(Apologies Adrian - I'm not having a go..) YOU control access, and if you dont like me, I cant go down - you wont give me the key. YOU decided to stick gates on things - YOU curtailed my fun in being able to go for a wander down a hole in Shropshire. That is not Freedom - I cant just go down when I feel like it - like I can go down Brownley, or Smallclough for a bit of a wander whenever I like.. So I can't agree with that attitude - sorry - you're acting exactly like the hated Lake District Parks board - you are dictating what people can and can't do, and when and where they can go.

Mine exploring is, in my opinion, all about freedom - the buzz of just hopping down a hole to see where it goes - gates and restrictions curtail a lot of the spontanaeity that goes with it.

Level 1 - I have to agree with everything you say - for the first time on this thread, someone has actually highlighted that perhaps not ALL the damage down there is caused by collectors - they seem to bear the brunt of anything that happens - I for one spend a lot of time stacking deads, lowering water levels (I spent a day or two recently digging out the fall in Rampgill and dropping the water by about a foot so its easier to walk up the drive) and I would not DREAM of hacking galena out of Carrs. I AM a very well travelled and serious mineral collector, and proud of it. There are holes all over England that have been dug through and opened up because of collectors - in one Yorkshire mine I can guarantee that a whole set of workings is accessible purely because of some digging I did many years ago - and there are still artefacts perfectly preserved in one of the levels because I've hidden it - too frightened to tell anyone - beautiful clog prints, miners tools where they were left, bait tins, leather clothing - and a very spectacular series of stunning barite cavities which collectors would KILL to get hold of -tis all still there - I know, cos I had a peep recently.

Somehow, mine explorers and 'proper' collectors need to bridge this silly wall that seems to have crept into the equation - each side thinks the other is wrong - they're not - they both have valid arguments, and we just have to promote a balanced approach that keeps everyone happy. After all - mines are mines - they are places that were dug in the search for minerals - collectors just carry on that search, and mine explorers are now able to enjoy the benefits thereof!!!

I think it would be great if some sort of general agreement were reached where perhaps we could have the odd weekend in Smallclough when collectors could join forces with the explorers and for instance, spend a weekend working through Wheel Flats clearing the floor, stacking the deads again, washing out the cavities and perhaps opening up some new ones for display only - I'm forever picking up little bits of galena and leaving them on rocks in obvious places for the kids to pickup - they're always gone next time I go in - no mineral collector would take them - these are just shiny, silvery bits - but think of the pleasure some little kid gets showing his teacher, showing his mates, and learning a bit about it.

Sorry - I'm rambling on a bit here - but I'd do anything to help bridge this silly philosophical gap between collectors and explorers - for heavens sake - its a hobby for all of us - we could all be dead tomorrow - lets all just get on with it, accept we have different opinions, and enjoy!!!!!


The Meek Shall Inherit The Earth

... but not the Mineral Rights...
ben88800
17 years ago
here we go AGAIN


.
Vanoord
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17 years ago
"ben88800" wrote:

here we go AGAIN



Not at all :)

This thread has - thankfully - been rather constructive and as long as people continue to refrain from having a go at each other directly, I have every hope that it will continue to be constructive!
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
skippy
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17 years ago
Mike

Re - tips::::

Most tips are removed for road material by farmers and the like - mineral collectors take minute proportions of them - once again, please don't generalise and accuse mineral collectors of doing all the damage - did mineral collectors remove the millions of tinnes of deads on the surface in Cornwall - of course not! The dumps at roughtongill are still the same size as they were - they continue to produce all sorts of weird things that no mine explorer has any interest in. Similarly Leadhills etc - I was in the Weardale a couple of weekends ago and saw tips being moved for road material that contained lovely specimens of fluorite - are you going to accuse me, a mineral collector, of devastating that tip when its gone...? You need to please get things into perspective. You might not be aware that one of the driving purposes behind the concept of SSSI's in the first place was to protect mine dumps from removal by landowners for road material, because it was recognised they were a valuable source of scientific material!


The Meek Shall Inherit The Earth

... but not the Mineral Rights...
skippy
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17 years ago
I just had a wicked thought....


Perhaps we could have a survey of members' consciences and ask for honest answers to this one:


How many people, on walking across a freshly ploughed field which was about to be seeded, and saw a nice shiny gold coin sitting on top of the furrow, would leave it there in the name of archaeology and walk on, or would they pick it up. Answers - no discourses - just Yes, I'd pick it up, or NO, I'd leave it.


:smartass:
The Meek Shall Inherit The Earth

... but not the Mineral Rights...
JR
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17 years ago
"skippy" wrote:

I just had a wicked thought....


Perhaps we could have a survey of members' consciences and ask for honest answers to this one:


How many people, on walking across a freshly ploughed field which was about to be seeded, and saw a nice shiny gold coin sitting on top of the furrow, would leave it there in the name of archaeology and walk on, or would they pick it up. Answers - no discourses - just Yes, I'd pick it up, or NO, I'd leave it.



I'm afraid that I'd pick it up BUT I would note it's situation and I'd take it to a mueum where 'hopefully' someone was available to put the find in context (after all if one coin is ploughed up there may be a building or settlement nearby).
In my view this site has a broad base of people with a passion for mining history/heritage. We come in all shapes and sizes and there are even women who explore. Now, as Carnkie and Level 1 said a while ago not all people with an interest in mine exploration are able to explore more difficult location due to age and/or infirmity. I plead guilty on both counts ! but then I have allways come to mine exploration out of a broader facination in our industrial heritage. So: While I do not and will never support the removal of artifacts in mines just because they have a 'bling factor' (be that history or sparkly mineral shaped) I do support the removal IF THERE IS HIGH PROBOBILITY OF LOSS IF THE ITEM REMAINS IN-SITU. I commented some time ago in this thread that I believe that removal of any artifact from a mine carries with it the resposability to properly record its context as fully as possible as part of a planned removal to a safe location (be that in a museum or elsewhere in the original mine or any other location. I note that Moorbooks has made a similar point more recently in this thread and his point too has recieved little attention. This is a pity since I strongly believe that if we as a group explore places we must as far as possible protect them. If necesary (but only if, and never, ever on a whim) that protection involves moving an artifact its context MUST be recorded BEFORE removal.
To put it simply we must become more responsable for the archaeological recording of mines as a part of the hobby.




sleep is a caffeine deficiency.
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17 years ago
"skippy" wrote:

I just had a wicked thought....


Perhaps we could have a survey of members' consciences and ask for honest answers to this one:


How many people, on walking across a freshly ploughed field which was about to be seeded, and saw a nice shiny gold coin sitting on top of the furrow, would leave it there in the name of archaeology and walk on, or would they pick it up. Answers - no discourses - just Yes, I'd pick it up, or NO, I'd leave it.


:smartass:



I'd pick it up then rush home for my metal detector - after securing the landowner's permission of course, and would declare the find as treasure trove. Now how about extending the analogy. Mineral collectors are often exhorted to take only one or two pieces and leave the rest for others. How many people, on finding a hoard of gold coins scattered about, would take one or two and leave the rest for others?
Moorebooks
17 years ago
Skippy,

I don't actually know who you are as clearly you have an axe to grind but take it from me I didn't install the gates - this work was carried out by Shropshire County Council as part of the restoration work carried at Snailbeach. The access agreements agreed with SCC require us to keep the gates locked and control access - but that is no different to cave and mine systems throughtout the country, OFD which is locked, Peak Cavern where you book a slot and Yorkshire where you require a permit. Milwr Tunnel requires booking, Great Orme where members off Adit Now recently visited . Wealdon have control of stone mines in the South east - I could reel off many more examples.

At Snailbeach we facilitate visits when booked or requests are made as again adit now members can confirm. We are not allowed to give out keys although any member of the club who wants access if competant will have no problem with obtaining them. This too is no different to any other club arrangements as far as I am aware

I appreciate you can't just turn up although if you were a member and considered competant ie able to do SRT and lead groups which from your CV I suspect you are the keys are available for use and I would take issue if that were not the case



Mike





carnkie
17 years ago
No, I'd leave it until I'd finished digging. :angel:
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
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17 years ago
"Moorebooks" wrote:


If there is a genuine in interest in a mineral I still fail to see why anyone should want to remove it. By hacking at a wall or whatever it will destroy the working face and archaelogy in its exact sense.

If you ignore the underground side of things and look at mine tips which again forms part of the archaeolgy these too have been picked over and many sites where you could find mineral remains these too have gone.

For the record the ransacking of Mineral from Nenthead is notorious and yes there may still be remains but not as the miners left it.

Mike




"Why anyone should want to remove it"? Because one cannot appreciate, or study, mud-coated, half buried examples down a dirty, damp, dangerous hole.

"hacking at a wall" There are miles and miles and miles of walls (and roofs and floors) in old mines. 99.9 % + of them are of no merit. I can understand wanting to preserve a hand-chiselled coffin level wall, or original miners' graffitti, but an ordinary wall, showing some mineralization, is of no special historic merit, but the minerals may be. In that situation the minerals surely have priority. To demand that miles of walls of little historic import must be preserved at the expense of other interests is just unreasonable. The mines are not there for one interest group only to have as its own private playground with all other groups totally barred. And this applies to collectors as much as to heritage/history buffs. There has to be some give and take. I, for one, am happy to leave the miners' remains alone, leave the structures in place, and not pull down the arching. But in return a wall or roof, that is no different to miles of other walls or roofs, except that it happens to have a vug or two, and is not in the way of remains, should be accepted as of legitimate interest to mineralogists.

"look at mine tips". Yes look at them - while they last. As part of its Lead Rakes Project in the Peak District, English Heritage produced a report (Bulletin 42) on the state of the mine tips, or "hillocks" as they called them, in the Peak District. You can read it here: www.english-heritage.org.uk/upload/pdf/peak_district.pdf By comparing Victorian maps with modern aerial photos, and on-ground footwork, the authors, two archaeologists with no interest in minerals, discovered that half, yes HALF, of the waste heaps had gone totally, and half the remainder were badly damaged. The culprits were farmers, forestry, quarrying etc. No mention of mineral collectors. The same story is repeated in most of the mining districts in the British Isles. Mine tips cleared, adits blocked, shafts filled, and collectors are NOT to blame.
English Nature once held a conference on mineral collecting and again this issue was raised. Unfortunately their link to the proceedings is not working just now but you can get a hard copy from them (English Nature. Mineral collecting and conservation – hammering out a future? Proceedings of a one-day conference in Salford, 16 April 2003 (Research Report). Unfortunately my copy has gone AWOL or I'd be quoting it for you. It covers all points of view on the subject but included some very interesting papers from degreed academics listing, amongst other things, the processes (natural or human) that degrade mineral localities with dozens of examples from all over the UK and Ireland, as well as the enormous positive contribution collectors make (new discoveries, scientific papers, 1000s of museum donations etc.). It is clear, from both these reports, that the main threats to mine sites, above or below ground, do not include collectors. They are things like agricultural practices, forestry, tips being used as aggregate, reprocessing, councils clearing "eyesores", natural weathering and erosion ... These are what destroy mine tips. Not collectors. If collectors have managed to salvage some specimens before the landowner bulldozes the site then good for them!

"the ransacking of Mineral from Nenthead" Only to those with a gripe against collectors is it "ransacking". If the mines collapsed irrecoverably tomorrow then "rescuing" might be a better adjective. As I understand it, many of those who have dug out large sections of these mines have been collectors, and their actions have made areas accessible to all including significant historic remains. I also note the frequency of visits by casual explorers, school parties etc. I wonder how much of the pulled-down deads etc. is their work rather than the actions of serious collectors? Experienced collectors are not interested in the battered bits in the deads. They want virgin vugs.

"not as the miners left it" The miners themselves did not always leave things nice and tidy. Pillar removal at the end of a mine's life has, doubtless, left many a mine sealed forever. With respect to specimens, I once found a piece wrapped in ancient newspaper (early 20th century) by a miner, and elsewhere in the same mine (Rampgill) vugs scraped clean by the miners themselves (their own rusting tools and rotten newspaper giving it away) presumably to get material for their spar boxes.

So let's put this into perspective please. The main threats to mine sites do not include collectors, and without collectors the minerals would be lost anyway when the mine falls in or the farmer removes the tip. Mines are not the exclusive preserve or one group or another. There has to be a bit of compromise on both sides. Yes leave the historic stuff and structures alone, but where these are not affected then leave the collectors alone too.
Vanoord
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17 years ago
[mod]Gents....

This appears to be moving into the territory of mineral 'collecting', which has a habit of getting a bit heated - last time around we lost a forum member for good and I'd prefer it not to happen again :)

If anyone wants to discuss the ethics of mineral collecting, then a new thread can be created for the purpose and the NAMHO guidelines appended as a start.

However, the here and now is related to the protection of artefacts...[/mod]
Hello again darkness, my old friend...

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