Good lord! That was removed for the sake of conservation? The mind boggles!

I wonder if the safest place for some things might be to sneak them into the Welsh Slate Museum and hide them under a bench somewhere in the workshops where they're unlikely to be picked up and subsequently lost...

All joking aside, there is a great concern that even a museum might not be a safe place for some artefacts: all the same, I think I'd prefer to see something take its chance there rather than on a mantlepiece.

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Yes, the fan was removed and taken to Gloddfa Ganol (they [well Ffestiniog Slate group] owned Croesor at the time) with the intention of re-erecting it there, unfortunately that never got done.

AndyC said

I am thinking specifically of the ventilation system that used to be adjacent to the entrance at Croesor.

I met someone earlier this year who claimed to have cut the fan up for scrap on the wishes of the owners...

AndyC said

I am thinking specifically of the ventilation system that used to be adjacent to the entrance at Croesor.

I met someone earlier this year who claimed to have cut the fan up for scrap on the wishes of the owners...

Oh dear. I hope that it wasn't a recent trip to the scrappie... 😞

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Whatever we may think is best for artifacts, I don't think there is a substitution for an artifact to be in it's original place if possible. It does not look the same in a meuseum or someone's mantlepiece for that matter. And It certainly does not have the same historic value.
Our gran had a big cast iron mangle with wooden rollers in her wash house (shed) which was there since I could remember. But when we cleared the house the mangle was then just a garden ornament for somebody else.
Was not the same.

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Its always difficult to argue hard and fast/black and white rules as people can always point to examples and exceptions where its possible to justify the romaval of artifacts and minerals to prevent their loss to theft/Graffiti/vandalism...
However given that once taken out of their placement and context the vast majority of artifacts and minerals are essentially worthless and un-interesting there must be a benefit in saying NO removal NOT ever...that way there are no loopholes whatsoever and we can comfortably label anyone that removes anything as a scrap stealing mineral robbing thief and scumbag...the deterent value of that is surely worth the loss of a few artifacts in the easily accessible locations that these people tend to frequent...

As far as I am aware, although a lot of the (relatively) modern electrical gear (and the mill roof beams) was removed from Croesor to Gloddfa Ganol after it was decided that Croesor could not be worked again, the ventilation fan was not removed because it had already been removed long since. It was certainly not there in 1978 when we surveyed Croesor and when the Ffestiniog Slate Group was actively proposing to work Croesor. If it had been there we would have measured it! And it was certainly never at Gloddfa Ganol. There was some talk of doing something with the old fan building which was by the adit mouth (you can see it in one of my photos) but again I don't recall ever seing even the brickwork of it at Gloddfa Ganol - and I did tend to wander all over the place for a number of years.
I'll check my Croesor notes to see if there's a reference..

Grahami

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Ooops - maybe I missed something -after all a heap of bricks is a heap of bricks...
the Croesor Fail updated to 1993 says "Here too is the entrance to the lefel fawr; note the bench-mark outside (1563'). The main entrance to the lefel fawr is blocked but presently there is access at the point where the fan ducting passed through. The fan has long gone and most of the stonework for the housing is at Gloddfa Ganol, but the outline of the fan remains on the wall of the adjacent building. "

I'll see if I can find the reference to the fan as well.

Grahami

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I'm not sure that this doesn't bring us into the area of the removal of mills and winders in order to reuse the materials as it's a lot cheaper than cutting afresh...

I'm not quite sure what prompted the clearing of the Floor 5 drumhouse at Llechwedd, but I keep looking in a very suspicious mannerat the sawn-slate walls that are being built along the new road into Blaenau!

I wonder if - in a strange way - had the masonry from the fanhouse been removed and re-erected into a window at the end of a barn conversion somewhere, whether that would perhaps have been a better fate for it?

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Vanoord is correct in stating where the slate and the windows from Gloddfa went.

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I notice that very recently Llechwedd have been demolishing more buildings on Floor 5.

No more buildings have been destroyed at fl 5. they are still as they where last year.

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Maybe I have got the floor wrong, there was certainly a building that had been partly demolished about a month ago, I could see the inside wall (painted white?) clearly visible from near the road. I wondered what the white expanse was to start with!

Take this photo for example -

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/photo/Personal-Album-106-Image-048/ 
The old Morris looks quite fascinating where it is, having stood in the forrest for about 25 years. But if you moved it, then it would be just another scrap car.

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For my sins, I wrote the original NAMHO guidelines on artefact removal.

I remember that, during the 1970s, we often hoovered up small artefacts like tools, etc wherever we happened to visit - Cornwall, Wales, Shropshire. I look back now on what we did with horror but, at the time, we justified our actions by saying that entrances would collapse and we would lose them anyway. Also, as we were in PDMHS and would shortly have the Matlock Mining Museum, they would be safer in our care!

As is often the case, one's opinions change over time and where one used to be very gung-ho and indiscrete, one finds oneself being more subtle and secretive!

The issue, I suppose is what is best for the artefact and what will preserve it best for the future and for it to remain accessible?

Anyway ... you will see that my actions came back to bite me. Had we left all the artefacts behind they could have been displayed in local musuems or even left in situ. SO the moral is ... take photos but not the things themselves

Now this is, sadly, where the problem occurrs:

[img]http://www.aditnow.co.uk/showimage?f=/community/Dark-Places-Big-Bash-Maenofferen-Trip-11-08-2007-Image-001/[/img]

SimonRL, I and many others took photographs of this and left it there to be enjoyed by others. Then, someone stole it and it's probably sat in a cupboard or a shed, or worse still has been thrown away as 'old junk' by the mother or wife of the person who took it.

If it were possible, it would have been better for this to be removed (with the landowner's permission) and put somewhere where it could be enjoyed in the future without risk of it going walkabout.

Going on somewhat and playing devil's advocate, is there an argument that someone responsible could/should have removed it to a safe place and then ultimately found a good home for it?

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you mean someone will flog it on ebay!!

Seriously with something portable on surface maybe better to buy it off the owner and get it to a museum

Mike

AdrianP seems to be the person who can throw a load more light on this subject. What would be involved with approaching the museum at Matlock and explaining the situation? For example, would they be prepared to take artefacts that are clearly under threat (threat level and justification would be discussed) and offer a safe home?
On the other hand, what is the problem with approaching any mining museum, it seems we are good at discussing things but then nothing further happens (on occasions).
I am quite prepared to pen some letters to relevant places and gain the feelings of the proprietors, as i feel that this discussion needs to move forwards to the next chapter!

All I can say is Chatterley Whitfield - this was a coal mininmg museum in the North of Stoke the curators had been leading lights for NAMHO. The museum lost NCB funding and were bankrupted all the aretefacts were sold off at an auction ( including the library). There is no gaurantee a private museum wouldn't end up doing the same.


Mike

Good point, however with funding from a powerful organisation such as NCB one would think it would be secure. The 70's/80's saw the crash of the british coal industry and presumably the funding stopped as a result?
Smaller museums are funded differently, and may be more stable, but still not a garuanteed future.
Should a museum close in this day and age, we should get to know about it and should that time arise we may be in a position to deal with the artefacts.

Possibly the answer might be the National Trust...

I was at Penrhyn Castle on Monday and they have an industrial/railway museum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrhyn_Castle_Railway_Museum  http://www.narrow-gauge.co.uk/gallery/152  which does also have a small selection of railway-related tools, so a selection of slate quarrying/mining relics would not necessarily be out of place.

There are also a few small sections at the museum that deal with quarrying history, particularly of the Penrhyn quarries - but I suspect they could yet be improved by the addition of relevant artefacts, be they jwmpahs, other tools or even something as large as a battery loco or trucks... ::)

The trick, I suppose with placing any objects into such a museum would be that they were on permanent loan and that they could not be disposed of.

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