Equipment loops on a harness are a real boon when bolting or working complex rigging, but can get caught up on all sorts of stuff at other times.
My work around for this is simple and cheap. Use a nylon cable tie attached to the waistband when you need a loop for your gear, and when you don't just clip it off. You can also have as many as you like/can carry/pose with etc.

Sorry I feel my post was mis-interpreted! The gear loops on the singing rock unit are actually on the BACK of the harness from what I have read, rendering them useless unless you are come kind of contortionist freak!

I used a Petzl Fractio for MANY years and always found it uncomfortable. Especially the leg loops. If you have it loose enough to be comfortable then when you put your wait on it, it was way tool lose.

Finally bit the bullet and got a Digger after my mate had one for a long time and likes it.

He dose some serious rigging (looking like a rigging store with the amount of gear and drills hanging off him) and says its great.

Had the Digger for a wile now and its much better.

BUT as others have said you really need to try them on.

A visit to Ingleton or similar me thinks.

I used a Petzl Fractio for MANY years and always found it uncomfortable. Especially the leg loops. If you have it loose enough to be comfortable then when you put your wait on it, it was way tool lose.

Finally bit the bullet and got a Digger after my mate had one for a long time and likes it.

He dose some serious rigging (looking like a rigging store with the amount of gear and drills hanging off him) and says its great.

Had the Digger for a wile now and its much better.

BUT as others have said you really need to try them on.

A visit to Ingleton or similar me thinks.

Unfortunately I am in the depths of cornwall, so I dont have the luxury of trying them on unless I know someone who has one!

Gear loops, yes my Singing Rock TORCA has them, and, bloody useful too, one of the most comfy (if you include the Pretzl chest harness) SRT jobbies around, shame they aren't made anymore!

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I have a Singing Rock Digger which I find pretty comfy to hang around in, which is handy because I am the slowest climber that is still alive!
The downside of the SR Digger is it is pretty bulky so I also have a Petzl Super Avanti which is fine for the mostly short pitches that I do up at Nenthead but I wouldn't want to spend too long hanging around in it. The steel loops on the SR mean that you probably don't want to be using lightweight ally harness crabs either.
Horses for courses.

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I have a Singing Rock Digger which I find pretty comfy to hang around in, which is handy because I am the slowest climber that is still alive!
The downside of the SR Digger is it is pretty bulky so I also have a Petzl Super Avanti which is fine for the mostly short pitches that I do up at Nenthead but I wouldn't want to spend too long hanging around in it. The steel loops on the SR mean that you probably don't want to be using lightweight ally harness crabs either.
Horses for courses.

Thanks, I'm still not convinced on it! I might ring starless river and see what they recommend! And possible purchase either one!

You have stumbled upon a topic with no satisfactory outcome, it appears.

I've just done the "What will I get when I write off my CS harness?" and the answer appears to be "There is nothing satisfactory".

The Starless River looks like a load of overcomplicated crap, the industrial stuff is like wearing a nappy and the simple harnesses do not have any support for the leg loops, which will mean they take a stroll in their chosen direction. The closest thing I can see is either the Petzl thingy with a double strap and the D ring metal fittings, or the Singing Rock "I'm made of nylon which is very stiff" Digger thing.

If I find a nearly new or NOS CS harness, I will buy that, otherwise, I am tempted to get some webbing and make one.

I want my harness to be as compact as my CS one and behave EXACTLY as my CS one does.

I have been unable to find anything which I think "This looks good" regardless of the price.

You have stumbled upon a topic with no satisfactory outcome, it appears.

I've just done the "What will I get when I write off my CS harness?" and the answer appears to be "There is nothing satisfactory".

The Starless River looks like a load of overcomplicated crap, the industrial stuff is like wearing a nappy and the simple harnesses do not have any support for the leg loops, which will mean they take a stroll in their chosen direction. The closest thing I can see is either the Petzl thingy with a double strap and the D ring metal fittings, or the Singing Rock "I'm made of nylon which is very stiff" Digger thing.

If I find a nearly new or NOS CS harness, I will buy that, otherwise, I am tempted to get some webbing and make one.

I want my harness to be as compact as my CS one and behave EXACTLY as my CS one does.

I have been unable to find anything which I think "This looks good" regardless of the price.

I have to say, the bulk isnt something I am overly bothered with, I would rather be comfortable, I generally amnot wearing the harness while doing tight squeezy stuff, and if I am taking the rope, drill and all the other kit, is another 250grams really that much of a big deal to me?

I realise that the technibat looks complicated, and it might well be, but I am more after comfort.

There are a couple of other harness' I am looking at but I hadnt really considered them until Ive read through this thread -

http://www.starlessriver.com/shop/harnesses_belts/alp_design_avalon_sit_harness 

Looks like a climbing harness, but it has the low attachment point and padded leg loops with the straps to hold them in place!

I use the Petzl Superadvanti, find it comfortable and have been in it for 13hrs with no issues. No problem with doing longer pitches of +60m, technique in your prussek makes a big impact as well.

Having the adjustments just right is very important. Also how you are built. Over the last 2 years I've lost about 20kg, even though as I said it is comfortable, but when I had the extra padding on my thighs it was even more comfortable....

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I use the Petzl Superadvanti, find it comfortable and have been in it for 13hrs with no issues. No problem with doing longer pitches of +60m, technique in your prussek makes a big impact as well.

Having the adjustments just right is very important. Also how you are built. Over the last 2 years I've lost about 20kg, even though as I said it is comfortable, but when I had the extra padding on my thighs it was even more comfortable....

I want something with the straps to hold the leg loops up.

I have just spent a good half an hour on the phone to a very helpful lady at starless river who has gone through all my requirements and we have narrowed it down between the Technibat and the MDTE Varonia.

Have to say, that they give first class customer service, I have paid for one harness, but they are sending both out to return one when I have decided. I never expected that! First class delivery sent to my door by 12 tomorrow too.

So we shall see what one comes out on top!

I would think that elastic straps for the leg loops could easily be added with manual stitching - not to the harness as such, but just to itself. After all, they're not load-bearing, and it wouldn't affect the PPE requirements if you didn't touch the harness straps. Maybe even long cable-ties would be sufficient?

Just stumbled upon this whilst looking for something else:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rock-Empire-SPELLEO-Harness-caving-/280744624795?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Climbing_Mountaineering&hash=item415daf029b 

Don't know anything about it but it does appear to fit at least some of the discussed criteria.

That looks pretty good.

One of my main criteria is that the D ring is as low as possible. I want my chest ascender down low, so when I have to negotiate difficult things, I can do the almighty mother of all pull ups and take a massive step.

You can adjust them up, but you can't adjust them down.

Just stumbled upon this whilst looking for something else:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rock-Empire-SPELLEO-Harness-caving-/280744624795?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Climbing_Mountaineering&hash=item415daf029b 

Don't know anything about it but it does appear to fit at least some of the discussed criteria.

I saw that, and thought it looked similar to the MTDE range!

Just stumbled upon this whilst looking for something else:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rock-Empire-SPELLEO-Harness-caving-/280744624795?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Climbing_Mountaineering&hash=item415daf029b 

Don't know anything about it but it does appear to fit at least some of the discussed criteria.

This -

http://www.starlessriver.com/shop/harnesses_belts/mtde_picos_harness 

Gear loops, yes my Singing Rock TORCA has them, and, bloody useful too, one of the most comfy (if you include the Pretzl chest harness) SRT jobbies around, shame they aren't made anymore!

I try not to get involved in the "harness/Stop/rack/jammer" debate every time it comes around every 12 months or so.... :lol:

However, the Torca is a lovely harness, especially, as Wormster says, when teamed up with a decent chest harness. But it is only comfy when perfectly adjusted....
The waist and leg loops can be adjusted, set and then opened and closed with the interlocking square rings. The downside of all this is that, as someone else mentioned, if you are wearing it over tracksters one day and over a Warmbac and furry the next then it will need re-adjusting. Or as happened to me, if you happen to put on half a stone over the winter :angel: It has elastic straps to keep the leg loops in place, so tick that box too. I can happily sit in it all day. The gear loops are really well thought out and even though they are at the rear you don't need to bend yourself in half to get at them.
So then...good and bad points.
I compromise by also having a super lightweight Petzl Superavanti which is nowhere near as comfortable but a lot quicker to get on and off. Superavanti is lighter but doesn't carry as much gear, and the gear loops are smaller, tighter and more fiddly.

I agree, by the way that the Digger is extremely uncomfortable but bl00dy indestructible and extremely safe and reliable. Don't have one but have tried one for a day....ouch :ohmygod:
So to sum up? It depends on what I'm doing on the day :smartass:

Now....let's get back to the Stop vs Rack debate..... :tongue: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: 😉

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Gear loops, yes my Singing Rock TORCA has them, and, bloody useful too, one of the most comfy (if you include the Pretzl chest harness) SRT jobbies around, shame they aren't made anymore!

I try not to get involved in the "harness/Stop/rack/jammer" debate every time it comes around every 12 months or so.... :lol:

However, the Torca is a lovely harness, especially, as Wormster says, when teamed up with a decent chest harness. But it is only comfy when perfectly adjusted....
The waist and leg loops can be adjusted, set and then opened and closed with the interlocking square rings. The downside of all this is that, as someone else mentioned, if you are wearing it over tracksters one day and over a Warmbac and furry the next then it will need re-adjusting. Or as happened to me, if you happen to put on half a stone over the winter :angel: It has elastic straps to keep the leg loops in place, so tick that box too. I can happily sit in it all day. The gear loops are really well thought out and even though they are at the rear you don't need to bend yourself in half to get at them.
So then...good and bad points.
I compromise by also having a super lightweight Petzl Superavanti which is nowhere near as comfortable but a lot quicker to get on and off. Superavanti is lighter but doesn't carry as much gear, and the gear loops are smaller, tighter and more fiddly.

I agree, by the way that the Digger is extremely uncomfortable but bl00dy indestructible and extremely safe and reliable. Don't have one but have tried one for a day....ouch :ohmygod:
So to sum up? It depends on what I'm doing on the day :smartass:

Now....let's get back to the Stop vs Rack debate..... :tongue: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: ;)

Sorry for detracting from the stop/rack debate! Im firmly on the Stop side of that one! Use a fig 8 as a back up incase, but I dont like using it!

The harnesses have both arrived, how is that for service?

I have tried on the MTDE Varonia, and have to say it is very robust, the protection on the legs is very good quality.

3 good gear loops, with lots of adjustment all over. The webbing is nice and soft and it is easy to adjust by yourself without been a contortionist.

It is very comfortable and tighter isnt always best, it actually works best I find by having either the leg or bum loops slightly looser and spreading the weight between all points. I have spent half an hour sat in it just on my croll in the garden and it is definitely not uncomfortable.

I feel the leg loops could possibly do with been a little bit wider for the heavier caver (11.5stone here and they do cut in a little bit as they are quite narrow compared with the super avanti and technibat)

All in in, it is a nice harness and sensibly priced too. It comes in a nice bag too so you can lob it in there and in your kit bag if your not sure if you will need it or not and it wont get caked! Its not difficult or long winded to put on either, i struggled less with that than my advanti to be honest.





The Technibat, looks very complicated, and to be honest, I think it is too complicated. It has a few better features than the MTDE offering -

Thicker leg loop webbing
Adjustable gear loops
Leg - mid straps to hold leg loops in place

Although, some of the above points also put me off due to not been implemented in a sensible way for the user of the harness.

The Leg-waist straps to hold the leg loops in place, are a brilliant idea, but they are also looped to the second "bum" loop, so to adjust them you have to take everything apart and adjust both parts of the harness, making it a very long winded process, although I imagine once it is done it wont need doing again.

I would also say the finishing of the cuts in the webbing is of a lesser quality than the MTDE. Along with the protection on the leg straps it is no where near as robust as the protection on the MTDE.

I have hung on this in the garden too and I was unable to get comfortable in it, I shall have another go at some adjustments and see how i get on, there is so much adjustment it will take a while to get it set up correctly, and as I said with the leg loops and bum strap it is overly complicated when 2 separate straps would have sufficed.

Overall I am very impressed with the quality of the harness, but I am not so sure if it is the right bit of kit for mine exploring, but I shall give it another trial this afternoon, so I reserve my final opinions until then!

I used to find my Petzl Avanti really uncomfortable but since mastering a efficient prusiking technique its no longer a problem. I just abseil quick on the way down...