Ookaaaayy! So let's apply some of this thinking to other outdoor activities...
Looking at Llanberis MRT data, there is clearly a high number of call outs on Crib Goch, sadly with a number of fatalities.

Ill equipped, unprepared people venture out onto the ridge no doubt inspired by 'Up your walking, go scrambling, do Crib Goch, it's only a grade 1' articles in outdoors magazines or drone footage on YouTube. Just as people venture into our mines inspired by articles read on 28 days or drone footage on YouTube or wherever else these weekend warriors get there ill advised ideas.

What is the answer to Newstuff's f*_€wits on Crib Goch rather than CRTT. Rig the ridge as a Via Ferrata?

Going into these places is inherently risky. The risk should be recognised as being real and potentially life threatening.

Two points worthy of consideration here:

1, Any underground rescue may take hours and hours to instigate. Therefore a minor incident can become a fatal incident. Above ground rescues can usually be summoned by phone.

2. The reaction to a fatal incident on the CRTT may well be to seal the entrances. Nobody ever blew up a mountain because it killed someone.

Personally i would hate to see it completely sanitised. But all that is being talked about here is making safe of the kit that's already there and a bit of improvement to the second pitch so somebody doesn't die on it.

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Rigging Crib Goch as a via ferrata is a bit of a red herring - because it's not a via ferrata to start with.

In this instance of Croesor/Rhosydd, the risk can be reduced by some relatively simple improvements to the rigging - particularly replacing bolts, improving hangs and replacing ropes.

The activity remains the same, but the margins are improved.

It's not dissimilar to someone replacing the top belay anchors on a climbing route because the original ones are rusted / badly sited / not properly backed-up.



Back on-topic, I wonder if an answer with the second abseil might be to bolt some angle-iron steps to the sloping slab to encourage people to cross it and abseil from the correct place (ie the deviation) by giving them a way to avoid sliding sideways down the slab (which is what usually happens).

A few steps similar to those in various places in Cwmorthin should do it - and probably a slightly better version of the deviation.

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Hmmm, steps and platforms. Not keen TBH, that is getting a bit *too* via ferata to my mind? OK there are zip wires, but the rest is abseiling, boats and a bit of jugging.

If it becomes too easy it loses it's 'feel' surely?

And if it becomes too easy then the experience level of the people undertaking the trip will decrease further?

I take the point that - rightly or wrongly - many people doing the trip might struggle with a hanging re-belay. But surely it doesn't need to be taken to the point where people walk down a slab on steel steps to a platform.

So why not just replace any dodgy bolts, improve the second pitch and provide a couple of small steps and a loop to clip into to facilitate a re-belay. Fix the zip wire. The traverse around where the second zip wire was should remain awkward, it's safe but it doesn't have to be easy. Sort something out with the final bridge, as much to reserve what remains of the bridge as to improve safety and fix whatever is up with the pitch from the boat - no steps, it's an SRT trip.

Detrus's idea of bolts/chain to allow pull-through rigging in addition to the fixed ropes sounds good to me too. Then people can do it on their own ropes if they want to.

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I was suggesting about three or four small steps bolted across the slab to the edge, to make it possible to get to the deviation without sliding down the slab (which is the usual method).

No platform or anything like that required.

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From memory it's about 25' feet to where i would guess the actual take off point would be? Would need more than 3 to 4 steps if that's what you were doing.

My opinion is the SRT part if the CRTT should remain SRT. Improved but not assisted.

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Was up there today actually, found and looked at the top of the super-deep airshaft. That would be a hard-core way in, lets blow the adit proper so the bar is raised :o

Seriously though, I don't think it should be made easier no, I think we should make the rigging that's in there already safe for (inexperienced) people to use.

It's clearly not right, rigging it properly won't take away the feel of the place it'll just reduce the likelihood of death.

Also, swapping the rubbish 8mm zipline on tiny sports anchors for a 13mm one on 40 ton anchors isn't going to change the thrill of the trip, most people on it wouldn't even know what the difference was. It certainly won't be easier - but it will be safer. And that's what we need to achieve.

A death on a mountain is much more socially acceptable than one underground. One highly publicised death in Croesor will, I absolutely guarantee, get it sealed for good. And lots of land owners in the area will look at their mines too and all of a sudden there will be a Welsh Assembly grant for mine securing.

Speaking selfishly but honestly too, it'll be rather damaging to my business. When those copper miners got trapped in South America, the bookings halved until they were rescued. And that scenario bears little resemblance to a welsh slate mine.

However, a national headline of "explorer dies on snapping ziplines deep in welsh slate mine" will be ruinous, not just for us but our competitors too. That's a lot of jobs at risk.

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A well reasoned response Miles. Thanks for that.

My article summarising all the CAT trips is in the "The Mine Explorer" Volume 5 pages 43 - 56. These are still available from CAT for £4.
http://www.catmhs.org.uk/on-line-shop-2/ 

Miles - The shaft is 320 feet and a good descent although getting the stretch out of the rope after having entered the workings near the bottom on the shaft is a challenge and some bungee jumping cannot be avoided. Very graceful with negligible fall factor. Best means of descent is to rig from the sheave wheels, have a rope protector on the edge, and re-belay as soon as you enter the solid rock - there is a small ledge to stand on but I am sure our anchors will need replacing now. Don't forget to wet the rope. First time we went we were unsure of the shaft depth and took a 200m rope!

For me I would take the first rope out on the through trip, it stops anybody who is not prepared from starting on the trip.

Jon

Thanks Jon.

Your descent of it is the only one I know of, would like to give it a go some day. Not sure about going off the sheave wheel, I'm heavier than you! I can imagine the only thing worse than falling down that shaft is falling down it being followed by a massive iron wheel 😃 (PS, I'm joking they must be 400kg or more)

There is a little access level a bit below the collar? Would be nice to dig that out, would make a nice take-off.

I agree removing the first rope would help raise the bar in the first instance but within a week another one will appear. And it'll be a horrid, ex-club retired thing that they didn't mind leaving behind because it was end-of-life. And it'll then stay there for years.

Better to put a good, new, well-rigged 12mm caving rope in properly and just change it annually. Maybe leaving a little note at the top (or the end) of an email address to notify someone (me?) if any damage/wear has been observed.

I'll come up with a plan.

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Thanks Jon.

Your descent of it is the only one I know of.....

It was done about 6 years ago by Scotty and (I think) Llion and A N Other.

PS Miles, your comments in CRTT imho are spot on .

Thanks Nigel and Corin.

Yes Corin that does ring a bell actually, I remember Llion saying he'd dropped it. I'll hopefully do it one day, when I've got a spare 120m length of rope kicking around...

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The only issue with descending the shaft is the soot (I believe it's soot but correct me if I'm wrong) covering your rope. I remember Scotty having a nightmare trying to clean his rope after we did it.

Ahh, you must then be the other person Corin spoke of :)

Well the shaft was used as an upcast for furnace-ventilation (more of a colliery thing than slate!) so it would make sense that it would have a lot of soot in it. Damp mine-soot is pretty horrible.

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The short access level is collapsed out-bye but you can get into it from the shaft for a short distance. It is not a level in solid rock but a slate culvert through tip and is at the point where the shaft changes from built up slate blocks to solid rock. My assumption is that at the shaft was sunk material was tipped around it and the headgear was periodically raised to allow more tipping with the culvert/level being formed as the spoil tip got higher.

Thanks for that Jon, I'm sure you're right in the way you say it came about.

Must go for a look down it one day.

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Hi Guys,
Restarting this thread as I've had two people message me this week asking if the through trip is safe. SUSS want to go over Easter and DCC have a trip planned in May. I have advised them to take a rope or two and a dinghy. Otherwise, debate aside, is there anything planned regarding a work party to get the fixed aids sorted? I may also be able to offer some assistance depending on dates.
Cheers, Lauren 🙂

Hi Guys,
Restarting this thread as I've had two people message me this week asking if the through trip is safe. SUSS want to go over Easter and DCC have a trip planned in May. I have advised them to take a rope or two and a dinghy. Otherwise, debate aside, is there anything planned regarding a work party to get the fixed aids sorted? I may also be able to offer some assistance depending on dates.
Cheers, Lauren :)

I've stalled for the moment. Waiting for vehicle permission etc to come through. I know the owners but they discuss these things in committee meetings and they only meet a few times a year. I know I could just steam up there and do it but it's better to do it properly, which I'm sure won't be a problem.

Personally I wouldn't do the trip until the works are done, as at least one zipline is only on one (inadequate) anchor. My advice would be to leave the mine alone and go somewhere else. But That's not the same as saying the trip is impossible, the route is open.

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Yes I remember the original 12mm cable and large industrial pulley block. It was there for atleast 10 years if memory serves before one of the strands snapped and someone replaced it with the current 6/8mm thing....

Agree on the required sag, it would also help prevent excessivly enthusiastic travellers from hitting the wall on the other side with too much force 😛 :surrender:

I put the industrial pulley in about 7 years ago with the idea it was too heavy for anyone to want to pinch. Not sure what happened to it when the cable was swapped out but i guess its still in there some where. If not then i have another one sat in the garage that i am happy to donate to the zip line. IT is designed for big cables though so would need another 12-14mm cable really.

The problem with the bridge was that the bolts had been placed in Quartz so when the slab fell on them they just pulled straight out. The one that was in slate actually snapped the 12mm bolt clean off! I still have the twisted anchor plate at home from when we pulled the bridge out and rebolted it back up as a momento 🙂

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The photo of that rope damage screams "needs a rebelay" to me. Are they all straight drops for ease of passage or is the rock so bad that it can't be rigged properly with rebelays on the rub points?

Nope the best thing is to get rid of that pitch all together. If you traverse the right hand wall to the back of the chamber you can slide down the rock face into the zip line chamber. It just needs a hand line going round the corner as its a bit hairy without one :thumbsup:

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