In regards to posting signs, isn't that then owning up to some sort of liability? You just can't win...

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In regards to posting signs, isn't that then owning up to some sort of liability? You just can't win...

Not if no one knows who left them and we all blame the magic sign fairy! 😉

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In regards to posting signs, isn't that then owning up to some sort of liability? You just can't win...

Not if no one knows who left them and we all blame the magic sign fairy! ;)

Isn't leaving fixed aids in general a liability? Or does the law assume it's up for the user to determine whether a fixed aid is safe to use. Not sure what the legal position is.

hi - while miles " launch platform " is a good idea - it involves a lot of work - and heavy material :

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_qc5AGOwKwO14SQ3jWJqnm__v8sJVJDO 

the above pic = a simpler easier solution - thsats a fraction of the workload and cost - and offers rope protection

simply - its a scaff bar - bolted to the floor [ with studs glued into floor - and a clamp // bridgeing bar bar across them - as its intended to be semi permanent ] - so that it extends out over the pitch head

abselers would approach as normal [ using thje green rope ]

and with assistance from the blue handline [ and scaff bar ] - lean back to transfer the deviation [ orange ] from belopw - to above thier descender

leaving them in a free hang - thats safe for them and the rope

thoughts ??

PS - i would like to avoid " what about idiots that cannot pass a deviation " issues . i know they exist - i have seen one " at work "

Morning

Not too bothered about the platform, would just be half a sleeper and some 1m lengths of 30mm re-bar. Obviously quite used to installing this kind of stuff in Cwmorthin and it's not that big a deal.

I couldn't see the image linked but I'm imagining it's a floor-level scaf bar at the end of the slab/start of drop to act like a smooth-corner for the rope to go over. They do work well and they are much better than the rope going over a slate edge. You can't really not use it either as it's bolted to the floor.

Problems with them are that the tube has to be laid exactly flat otherwise it slides to one side and the other problem is that they do still rub and the galv ends up in the rope like a black oily flat spot.

I agree that it would be better if people doing the trip were universally competent but some just aren't. I've seen people wandering out of the No9 having done the trip and I've wondered how the heck they made it. All their gear made form blue poly prop and knotted seatbelts. Headlamp they got free from a petrol station and a hard hat you'd not use for a plant pot.

We have to accept this is the bottom end of the technical standard of visitor (because it is) and unless you put a portacabin at the adit with a guard making visitors pass a skills test, we have to assume these people will keep coming. I don't want to have to go help haul out a dead one at 4am because they got stuck on a rebelay that I helped put there :confused:

I'm going to knock it on the head for this Saturday for doing any work in there as nobody else is available but I'm gearing up to the idea that the place would benefit from a bit of a sustained effort, maybe over several months just going through it and proper-job everything.

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Shouldn't an SRT trip require competence in the techniques involved? I wouldn't have attempted the caving & minex trips I have done without adequate skill necessary to complete them. A rebelay is just part of regular progression in a cave or mine SRT trip.

Does everything have to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator? Building what would amount to a crane to allow a free hang??? Really? People should accept this is an adventurous trip which has inherent dangers that should only be attempted by trained or competent people.
It's been a good few years since I climbed anything graded Extreme, and I probably never will again. Should I chip holds so I can climb the routes I now aspire to? No, I should get back out there and build my skills up to the point where I can complete climbs I want to attempt.

Place a sign at the first abseil stating 'The second abseil now has a rebelay. Do not proceed past this point without the necessary training, skill or competence to complete an abseil involving a rebelay.'

Place a sign at the first abseil stating 'The second abseil now has a rebelay. Do not proceed past this point without the necessary training, skill or competence to complete an abseil involving a rebelay.'

"I've driven 5 hours for this, what's a rebelay, who cares?, let's do this trip, yeah let's go!"

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Isn't leaving fixed aids in general a liability? Or does the law assume it's up for the user to determine whether a fixed aid is safe to use. Not sure what the legal position is.

I reckon I could write an essay on this, but the major issues would be identifying who was actually responsible for anything that happened (very difficult) and whether they had acted reasonably (difficult to disprove); and also whether or not the injured party had acted in a reasonable manner, ie had been appropriately careful and not attempted a trip they were not capable of doing.

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Shouldn't an SRT trip require competence in the techniques involved?

Yes, it should.

Does everything have to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator? Building what would amount to a crane to allow a free hang??? Really?

Well better that than somebody dying which I think is becoming a distinct possibility. It's an unfortunate situation but that mine and the route through it is just frequented by people who shouldn't be doing it but are.

And that's probably the fault of people like me, doing it years ago then uploading trip reports on the Internet.

There are plenty of purist mines around, practically untouched, minimal bolts etc etc providing super sporty trips that only the experienced explorer would attempt.

CRTT isn't one of those, it's got more rigging than a pirate ship with aluminium bridges, ziplines, a marina - the lot.

Trying to change the people doing it isn't go to work. We either make the route work for them or do nothing and wait for someone to die.

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Place a sign at the first abseil stating 'The second abseil now has a rebelay. Do not proceed past this point without the necessary training, skill or competence to complete an abseil involving a rebelay.'

I completely agree that you shouldn't do the trip unless you can do a re-belay. To put yourself in a situation, several hundred feet down and a half a km in, on a technical route, where a knot in a rope could be your undoing is - on the face of it - a bit of a risk.

But...

One of the fundamental issues with the CRTT is that's it's known outside of the mine exploring and caving world; not widely obviously, but it is known. So some people come to it who aren't really interested in the mines themselves, or possessed of good SRT skills.

That entire problem could be address by removing the in-situ ropes. I'm not suggesting that as a course of action; but if the trip required you to own enough rope and know how to do a pull-through, and commit to it so completely or be prepared to de-rig, it would probably put nearly everybody off.

But that's somewhat at odds with the ethos of the trip. It's an adventurous day out. In our terms it's not actually that technical (although it sounds as if it's getting increasingly technical) but it's still pretty daunting and I'm glad people still enjoy doing it.

Part of me says it would be nice if it was returned to the raw unaided route it once was. But that's a bit elitist, and would be a real kick in the teeth to the people who have put so much work in over the years on some frankly amazing engineering.

So given that's not an option, the safest solution seems to be the way to go.

That said, it would be a pity if it was TOO easy...

Many have viewed the CRTT as something of a sacrificial mine; ladder bridges, zip wires etc. There are plenty of unspoilt mines around.

Although it is a real pity that the two bridges have had such a clobbering over the years. I've seen photos of the first bridge with almost all the planks in place (and videos of people walking on them and falling through - how much sense does it take to not step on the planks?), and the second bridge is now barely there at all.

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On a different matter - if you want a read of the 2nd ever Croesor Rhosydd Through Trip, have a look here:

https://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Croesor-Slate-Mine/3-Men-1-Dinghy-Page-1.pdf 

https://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Croesor-Slate-Mine/3-Men-1-Dinghy-Page-2.pdf 

Also worth checking out are the CATMHS write-ups of it in the other direction... Can't recall which edition of The Mine Explorer they were in?

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That entire problem could be addressed by removing the in-situ ropes.

The trouble is, about two weeks later, some caving club will have replaced them with some tatty old thing and the whole cycle starts again.

Or, worse still, they leave the first one in-situ, do the second abseil as a pull though and then a party with several novices tips up, does the first abseil and gets to the second before realising they don't have a rope with them - and lack the technical ability to get back up the first abseil.

At that point they either sit there and wait for rescue; or try to get up the pitch, fall down and lie in a broken heap awaiting rescue.

As both you and MM say, the problem won't go away - it's a case of trying to improve what's in there to stop people getting stuck / broken / broken and stuck.

The current list seems to be:
- putting a wire in across the first water crossing
- replacing the bolts on said crossing
- replacing the bolts on the two big abseils?
- trying to find a way of reducing the rope wear on the second abseil

Owt else?

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Shouldn't an SRT trip require competence in the techniques involved? I wouldn't have attempted the caving & minex trips I have done without adequate skill necessary to complete them. A rebelay is just part of regular progression in a cave or mine SRT trip.

Does everything have to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator? Building what would amount to a crane to allow a free hang??? Really? People should accept this is an adventurous trip which has inherent dangers that should only be attempted by trained or competent people.
It's been a good few years since I climbed anything graded Extreme, and I probably never will again. Should I chip holds so I can climb the routes I now aspire to? No, I should get back out there and build my skills up to the point where I can complete climbs I want to attempt.

Place a sign at the first abseil stating 'The second abseil now has a rebelay. Do not proceed past this point without the necessary training, skill or competence to complete an abseil involving a rebelay.'

Good job you're not a member of North Wales Cave Rescue, so you won't need to deal with any potential suspension trauma injuries and rescues....::)

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The current list seems to be:
- putting a wire in across the first water crossing
- replacing the bolts on said crossing
- replacing the bolts on the two big abseils?
- trying to find a way of reducing the rope wear on the second abseil

Owt else?

Depends what the rest of it looks like :)

I would say, possibly all of it...

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I'm more inclined to agree with Simon. Rig-as-you-go. It's the typically accepted means of progression in caving (there I go again with the C word.) I got into minex through caving, which in itself was a progression from climbing (Miles, you know a very good mate of mine well, you know his history & ability. We got trained and got out there and worked this stuff out together.)

The first time I did the CRTT (2008 ish) it did seem pretty nails. I have done it a good few times since, each time there
it was easier. Not just through familiarity, although that must be a factor, but the last couple of trips were sanitised. Rigging everywhere, no feeling of true objective danger.

I know it's a mine, it is by its very nature a man made environment. I know the environment of caves is different, more natural and (which the club/council/elitism I want no part of insist) should remain pristine; but the CRTT is, or should be a classic. Reading the early trips, as Simon suggests, or Chris Cowdrey's trip report and seeing it now just makes one want to weep as to how easy it has become.

Have we become so safety obsessed that we shouldn't recognise what we do, what we choose to carries a risk?

Good job you're not a member of North Wales Cave Rescue, so you won't need to deal with any potential suspension trauma injuries and rescues....::)

No, I'm not, but the only cave rescue I have been witness to which my party initiated on behalf of another party, where one of their team was hung up, they'd never heard of suspension trauma and didn't appreciate the danger their team member was in.
Happy to be told I did the wrong thing though.

Isn't the idea of posting a sign at the first abseil an idea that might get untrained / unprepared parties from putting themselves at risk of suspension trauma.

That said, I fully agree with Vanoord's comments above. 5 hr drive, yeah let's go does seem to go with the territory.

I have the answer! :smartass:

Everyone should be fitted with one of these.........

If it doesn't fly, you may still float or bounce to safety :lol:






🔗85279[linkphoto]85279[/linkphoto][/link]

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Is that mr lowe?

He looks very pleased to see you. He's upgraded his appendage with side-boosters! Respect.

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Is that mr lowe?

He looks very pleased to see you. He's upgraded his appendage with side-boosters! Respect.

"I challenge you to a duel, Sir! (Water) pistols at ten paces!"


🔗85284[linkphoto]85284[/linkphoto][/link]


The only way to do the CRTT these days....tongue firmly in cheek....:)

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Good job you're not a member of North Wales Cave Rescue, so you won't need to deal with any potential suspension trauma injuries and rescues....::)

No, I'm not, but the only cave rescue....{snip}

What I think he's saying is that no matter what you do, some knuckle dragging fuckwit is going to come along and try it, because it's "famous". It would be really nice to just have people competent enough to do the trip, with minimal aids, but the cat is well and truly out of the bag. If you have a technical trip and put an idiot on it, and it's a certainty you'll get idiots, then at some point NWCRO will be pulling a body (bodies?) out of there. The trick is, finding the balance between keeping said fuckwits alive and having fun ourselves.

You've seen it for yourself, all hung up with zero idea of how to get sorted, and what it can do to you.

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