Okay Pete.

It'll likely take a few hits anyway, happy to install anchors this Saturday if I can get at least a few experienced people together.

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It sounds interesting but I might want to make a late decision on this! Things are a bit hectic atm.

https://i.imgur.com/U1NmQ2u.jpg 

We re-tensioned and used the temporary rigging where the first steel zip wire used to be. We did bring a dinghy for the trip, but unfortunately upon unpacking, realised it was missing the bung! :oops:

Aside from the first crossing, I made an error on the bridge of death trying the rope on the right over the ladder/timber. Fine for the first bit but the last bit I sagged so low below the timber trying to pull myself up on the pulley. Wished I had just used on the left crossing (me and my cowstails were a bit too short for it)!

Other than that some of our group found the traverse off the boat and onto the pitch on the far side of the chamber of horrors difficult due to the nature of the rigging. The looped rope around the old rusty peg is deceiving.

Thanks for the update and the photo showing the horrendous condition of the in-situ rope. Glad you got rid of it, I can only assume that it is rubbing somewhere so will have a look at that. What's the pitch length on that one? Isn't it around 20m? I'll see about bringing something else.

I'll make a decision maybe late Wednesday depending on who comes forward to help, as to whether Saturday is a goer for the first run or not.

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Saturday is out for me too!
But I could also be available the following week.

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The photo of that rope damage screams "needs a rebelay" to me. Are they all straight drops for ease of passage or is the rock so bad that it can't be rigged properly with rebelays on the rub points?

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The photo of that rope damage screams "needs a rebelay" to me. Are they all straight drops for ease of passage or is the rock so bad that it can't be rigged properly with rebelays on the rub points?

I suspect it's ease of passage and I think if you put a rebelay on some people will just get stuck. Unfortunately the bar is set rather low on the CRTT when it comes to the level of technical skill, or rather the lack of, with some people that insist on doing it.

It might be possible to rig it better from the top by getting the anchors and rope further out in the clear. I've not been along that route in about 12 years, I can't much remember it and I bet it's changed quite a bit since then anyway.

I'd quite like to give it a really good looking at and see what can be done. Ropes coming apart like in that picture isn't acceptable, it must be rubbing.

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The photo of that rope damage screams "needs a rebelay" to me. Are they all straight drops for ease of passage or is the rock so bad that it can't be rigged properly with rebelays on the rub points?

Not sure if this will show up but this is one of the pitches in Creosor, I think it is the second pitch, the comments suggest that a rebelay is not possible because of the fractured slate but there is plastic protection in situ.
https://www.facebook.com/michael.knief/videos/pcb.1688127834579358/1688116594580482/?type=3&theater 

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From memory - and it's been too long....

I think the hang is relatively clear as long as it's used right.

The pitch should have a 'deviation' at the top (perhaps a couple of metres down at most) which requires the rope to be unclipped from a krab to pass it (iirc this was a somewhat smaller bolt).

What that did was to orientate the rope into clear space for the remainder of the pitch.

The issue comes that the top of of the pitch is on a sloping slab and the temptation is to go down that slab (with the deviation having been removed by someone prior), which causes you to move a couple of metres to the right as you descent.

You then end up in a free hang but at some point the weight on the rope swings you back the couple of metres you went sideways as you went down the slab at the top.

The rub - I'd thought - was worse at the top, but it seems to be knackering the rope at the bottom as well?

The crazy answer we came up with was some sort of metal frame to cantilever the rope out from the edge and stop people sliding down the slab (and thus traversing sideways).

The simple answer was to turn the deviation into a rebelay - an option that is pretty simply dismissed when you realise that the next group along will revert to the daft rig that's causing the problem.

In short, it's a really problematic pitch that's probably best resolved by changing the rope every few weeks. Which also isn't feasible... :bored:

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Hello. Yep sadly I suspect popping a re-belay in would create several issues with many of the folk doing the trip really being climbers with climbing kit rather than competent at getting back up a rope!

I’ve often wondered about installing some pull through anchors coupled with a fixed rope with a suggestion put out for people to bring their own rope and pull through rather than depend fixed rope (which could still be used to get back up if there was an issue)

I’m happy to come help out but unfortunalty I’m working this weekend.

Incidentally, the thought of a 9mm rope on that second pitch worries me - the sooner something thicker replaces it, the better!

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As Van says... the somewhat unnatural lie of the rope on the second pitch was to stop people hugging the right hand wall, which is a) nastily fractured, and b) invariably resulted in swinging left at the point of going over the overhang with a nasty zzzziiingg as the rope slid across the jagged slate edge.

Completely agree with the opinion that it’s crying out for a rebelay (not a Rebekah as spell check seems to think...) but also agree with the point Miles and others make that it would almost certainly result in somebody getting hung up. In fact the same thing has been said over the years as the same issue has cropped up with the rope several times.

There’s some good solid plastic bolted to the rock, I think that was Speedy/Claire/Llion etc. that put that in.

Aside form the iffy rigging and the potential to get somebody relatively inexperienced stuck - if the pitch were more technical - the main issue I guess is traffic and the resulting west and tear.

On a trip a few years ago it was found that the rope on the 2nd pitch was dangerously worn through at the point it went through the maillion. That’s not where most people would think to check, but that rope was quite likely a few trips off killing someone; it was Gethin knowing where to look that spotted it.

With the rope looking the way it did in Griffin’s photo I wonder whether a previous group found it was knackered at a rub point and re-rigged it so the knackered bit was somewhere less drastic?

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It could well be the case that the damage was nearer the top, and some party has flipped it around so the damage is near the bottom. In which case it's probably getting damaged again in the same place now.

Yes the 9mm (type B presumably) is only a temporary measure especially if we are all agreeing there is a hazardous rub point near the top of that pitch. :blink:

Could we install a ledge made of a railway sleeper and thick bars where the sleep slab becomes vertical? So it would not be a proper hanging rebelay but more of a cowstail line down to the proper pitch-head where it goes vertical?

I've not seen it in years, I can't picture it. Need to go have a look. There must be something we can do, even like building a short catwalk out (like the Cwmorthin ones) to get to a point where the hang is clear.

I'm sure we're all in agreement something has to be done, it's a timebomb for a fatality that place and if it happens I bet it's not even the mine, it'll be the rigging that does it.

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This may be a daft question by why have in situ ropes at all?

(a) If people had to rig the pitches themselves it would possibly cut down traffic on the CRT, particularly less experienced parties.

(b) Looking at the state of the rope removed it is only a matter of time before one fails with possibly horrendous consequences.

Do in situ aids devalue what was once a classic and challenging trip?

The deviation is still in place. It was suggested at the time (by Suboffender) that the damage has happened at the top, so the rope had been turned around. It wouldn't make sense getting damaged 4 metres from the bottom, where it's free hanging. We had 60 metres of that red 9mm, and cut it in half I think. It's glazed and fast, needs replacing asap.

Will admit I was pondering whether the time has come to take the the ropes out, as that would fix the problem of wear and replacement. But it does seem a shame with the continuous work that's gone into the rest of the permanent rigging on the what is a classic trip. Reckon it wouldn't take long for someone to put ropes back on the pitches again anyway ::)

That's the thing. If you take them out new ones will appear very quickly. And they'll be tired old ones because nobody will want to give up a nice new 11mm and leave it there.

Best bet is to get it rigged and rigged really well with good rope. If there are no rub points it'll last a long time and we can just replace it annually or whatever.

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If the pitch must be left rigged, how about using American PMI rope which has very high abrasion resistance?

The way I see it is,
If you can't do rebelay then you shouldn't be doing the trip.
It shouldn't matter if we make the rigging more difficult,
You wouldn't take a newbie down titan due to the nature of the rope work,so why should a mine be any different??

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The way I see it is,
If you can't do rebelay then you shouldn't be doing the trip.
It shouldn't matter if we make the rigging more difficult,
You wouldn't take a newbie down titan due to the nature of the rope work,so why should a mine be any different??

Agreed, but...

If you rig it as a rebelay, someone will take it out and rig it without the rebelay and it's back to square one.

The deviation mostly works, but might it be an option to put a sign at the top of the pitch which explains why the deviation is there and politely suggest that it should be used?

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If we use loctite mallions they can't mess with the rigging unless they take a spanner.
Its an idea??
I think it would be an idea to have some kind of notice at the mine.
Also post a message on other forums.

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