I believe DaveL is going to be notifying other clubs, groups and web discussion lists.

Actually, it's Gethin who has contacted people - I've just suggested some contact addresses.

My involvement with this is that I went along to the initial meeting called by Gethin on 21st December at Betws which was attended by Miles and Dena Proctor - i.e. I was the only non-comercial/centre person there. (I think a number of people were invited but only the four of us turned up.)

It's possibly worth pointing out that the organisation doesn't exist until the general meeting happens and the constitution is agreed - so as anyone who is interested should come along and make sure their interests are considered.

From my own point of view I don't like access groups or bureaucracy in general, but I'm afraid that they are a necessary evil as organisations like the Forestry Commission won't negotiate with individuals (or even individual clubs).

Dave

Is it for all FC managed land in North Wales ie Coed y Brenin, Dolgellau; Clocaennog etc or just for the Gwydyr Forest Park area?

Edit: Just been on ME and it only covers Gwydyr area. I would like 'Snowdonia' kept out of the name in case other FC areas need their own control group in the future. It would avoid confusion at a later date.

Other Forest areas include Coed y Brenin and Dyfi, all in the Snowdonia National Park.

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Thanks Mr Mike

For the record, so everybody knows it's not a secret, the following groups have been notified so far:

• The Forestry Commission
• Mine Explorer
• AditNow
• UCET
• UK Caving
• North Wales CC
• Parys Mountain Group
• Great Orme Exploration Society
• NAMHO
• Cambrian Caving Council, and
• All the Centres that use Rhiwbach

Have the British Caving Association been informed of this?

I feel that they should have direct representation.

Yes.

The mines in question are those under the BCA LCMLA scheme.

I really think people should attend the meeting or write in / PM issues.

As I've said I know nothing in detail about it at this stage. I just want to be sure that hobby mine explorers and people with an interest in the conservation of the mine environment get an equal say as the OEC and commercial users.

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please correct me if im wrong but if this is going to be a nation wide programme maybe this access and conservation body could help us out with a wider more flexible access agreement for the milwr tunnel . just a thought

please correct me if im wrong but if this is going to be a nation wide programme maybe this access and conservation body could help us out with a wider more flexible access agreement for the milwr tunnel . just a thought

Already had that thought Mike. One of the main reasons why I'm going to watching this one closely 🙂.

please correct me if im wrong but if this is going to be a nation wide programme maybe this access and conservation body could help us out with a wider more flexible access agreement for the milwr tunnel . just a thought

Already had that thought Mike. One of the main reasons why I'm going to watching this one closely 🙂.

Agreed, it certainly needs doing, and a lot of people would be extremely grateful.

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i have found dena procta to be really helpful and well informed

i have found dena procta to be really helpful and well informed

I'd expect her to be. She is directly involved in the BCA cave and mine leader training scheme. This conservation group will benefit the BCA and other commercial parties involved.

If it benefits the mine-explorer too, like I would expect it to after their open invitation to the first meeting then I'm all for it

please correct me if im wrong but if this is going to be a nation wide programme maybe this access and conservation body could help us out with a wider more flexible access agreement for the milwr tunnel . just a thought

Already had that thought Mike. One of the main reasons why I'm going to watching this one closely 🙂.

Agreed, it certainly needs doing, and a lot of people would be extremely grateful.

Simon

Milwr Tunnel has been out of bounds whilst western Utilities carry out works. Grosvenor are waiting to renegotiate once this is complete. Patience is the name on this one and hence why the top of the shaft had to be concreted to stop the idiots queering the long term future- I had this from the one of the negotiators.

As for forestry commission access we have a local agreements in Shropshire and pay a licence fee ( Huglith Mines for instance). Big problem in Gwydyr Forest there is no club operating in the area to negotiate with, however , sems to me that this group people want to operate responsibly and have circulated information via NAMHO it would seem legit to me.

It would also seem sensible those that have a Leisure interest should attend that meeting with a view to ensure reasonable access for all

Mike

This group is for access control of mines on FC land in Snowdonia. Milwr is neither on FC land or in Snowdonia.

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Simon

Milwr Tunnel has been out of bounds whilst western Utilities carry out works. Grosvenor are waiting to renegotiate once this is complete. Patience is the name on this one and hence why the top of the shaft had to be concreted to stop the idiots queering the long term future- I had this from the one of the negotiators.

Don't worry Mike, I know the situation, and I know they have been negotiating for some time. I only said:

Agreed, it certainly needs doing, and a lot of people would be extremely grateful.

Because once it is resolved many people will be extremely grateful.

This group is for access control of mines on FC land in Snowdonia. Milwr is neither on FC land or in Snowdonia.

Yes, agreed.

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Right, dragging this thread back on topic :thumbsup:

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May I ask;

Who set up this organisation ?

Who are the current key players ?

Who wrote the constitution ?

Has any approach been made to the FC ? (If so, what is their response?)

Regards,

Ian

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As far as I'm aware:

Gethin Thomas (Oaklands OEC), Miles Moulding (Go-Below) in consultation with the Forestry Commission, and the BCA through Dena Proctor and Elsie Little.

I believe Gethin wrote the constitution, however I imagine it was likely to have joint input.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63623071/SMACG_Constitution.pdf  opens with "SMACG Was set up initially to take on the access management of Rhiwbach Mine On behalf of the Forestry Commission, Historically negotiated and managed by both representatives of the local Outdoor Education Centres and Forestry Commission."

I do think the meeting on Wednesday will be worth attending by anybody with issues or questions.

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Thanks Simon,

I will come to the meeting if I am able.

I was significantly involved with a dispute involving a "group" who were self-appointed who took control of a South Wales system and then imposed sanctions on visitors - they cited "landowner requirements" in their defence. When, what they actually meant was "we got to the landowners first and we told them what they wanted to hear and they agreed". They won the backing of the BCA because they were the authorised access agents. This caused a political storm, gates were ripped off and police involved.

I have also not forgotten the relentless pasting that I suffered from many people (some who are involved in this project) when the club I am a member of tried to procure an access agreement with a mine owner near Hendre when the landowners suggested they were going to backfill the entrance. The arguement then was that the club was interfering with an already open (albeit not-permitted) entrance and was empire building. By rocking the proverbial boat, it was considered that explorers could only lose out.

I am concerned that the same thing is happening again.



Ian

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Assuming that the group gains access to the Gwydir Forest metal mines, then that will be a step forwards as there is no access at the moment.

However, as IanA says, if it gets to a stage where the group starts taking over access to mines where unhindered access is already possible, then that causes a problem.

There is a significant difference between "gaining access" and "controlling access" and I would hope that the group both respects this and ensures that the former is what it will be striving for.

From the point of view of the majority of us - and that includes those who have a history of enabling their own access through mechanical means - there has to be a realisation that locking up adits that have not previously been gated is not going to prove popular.

The really big stumbling block would be if people have to be 'members' of a group in order to gain access - although that does not appear to be any part of SMACG's intentions.

However, a sensible balance will have to be struck between the operation of mines by commercial operators and continuing access by leisure users who just want to turn up and go in. The proof of the pudding will, no doubt, be in the eating.

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This group is for access control of mines on FC land in Snowdonia. Milwr is neither on FC land or in Snowdonia.

The draft constitution suggests that the remit could extend far beyond the Gwydyr forest and the FC:

"  ii. To manage the access to a listed selection of mines within Snowdonia and North Wales on the behalf of participating landowners and where possible mineral right owners within the BCA Access Controlling Body scheme"
 

This group is for access control of mines on FC land in Snowdonia. Milwr is neither on FC land or in Snowdonia.

The draft constitution suggests that the remit could extend far beyond the Gwydyr forest and the FC:

"  ii. To manage the access to a listed selection of mines within Snowdonia and North Wales on the behalf of participating landowners and where possible mineral right owners within the BCA Access Controlling Body scheme"
 

It suggests that it could extend beyond the FC area of Gwydyr at some point in the future. It is set up specifically for access to the Gwydyr mines because the FC wants it to be so. It is for commercial companies to operate in that area, but it 'allows' access to BCA members as per BCA requirements. To operate in other FC areas and other areas in Snowdonia and North Wales suggests that one of the commercial operators may want to 'open' another tour mine there at some point in the future.

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This group is for access control of mines on FC land in Snowdonia. Milwr is neither on FC land or in Snowdonia.

The draft constitution suggests that the remit could extend far beyond the Gwydyr forest and the FC:

"  ii. To manage the access to a listed selection of mines within Snowdonia and North Wales on the behalf of participating landowners and where possible mineral right owners within the BCA Access Controlling Body scheme"
 

I suspect there is more than one person with that part circled on a print out of the draft constitution... And in conjuction with2 (b) either hints at wider aims or is just a big ambiguous.

I feel there needs to be somebody on the committee who is not a joint or professional/commercial member but is solely interested in recreational access, the rights of recreational users, a minimum of red tape for recreational users and conservation issues especially where pertaining to potentially large groups in the fragile environment of metal mines.

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I feel there needs to be somebody on the committee who is not a joint or professional/commercial member but is solely interested in recreational access, the rights of recreational users, a minimum of red tape for recreational users ...

I wholeheartedly support that.

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