There was a callout of North Wales Cave Rescue last night. Not sure of all of the details but apparently there were no injuries and all parties were safely bought to the surface.

Congratulations to all involved, Cave and Mountain rescue alike.

Hopefully somebody who attended will be able to fill in more details.

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Sounds interesting!
I'm sure the tale will come out in due course

the CRO mailing list has a report. not sure about posting it here. The gist is the group couldn't find the exit.

So seems to be the case. What surprises me is that they started out at 4pm - it would be relatively easy not to realise that some chambers break to daylight if it's already dark by the time you get to them... ::)

MerddinEmrys attended and I suspect he will be able to post a more full report later on.

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I guess they split because they figured if 2 of the 5 felt they couldn't make it then they'd have had an epic getting them up the two abseils?

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Also see here.

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,6926.0/topicseen.html 

It was bound to happen sooner or later. The CRTT shouldn't be taken lightly......

Chris.

The gist is the group couldn't find the exit.

Must have been more to it than that or they would simply have retraced their steps and exited through Croesor

Must have been more to it than that or they would simply have retraced their steps and exited through Croesor

Seems not...

It was bound to happen sooner or later. The CRTT shouldn't be taken lightly......

I think this is the third time that there have been problems?

The simple answer, as you suggest, is that the requirement for the trip is not the ability to do it, but to do it forwards, meet a problem and then repeat it backwards, with a couple of 80' ascents to finish off with: that's always been the thing you need to consider you should be able to do and in this case, some of the group weren't.

I'd also question the logic of starting out in the afternoon, having learned the potential pitfalls of popping out in darkness for ourselves...

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The gist is the group couldn't find the exit.

Must have been more to it than that or they would simply have retraced their steps and exited through Croesor

I'm inclinded to agree that leaving a couple of people underground for a total of 15 hours isn't the best move, but perhaps forcing them to do something they must have said they couldn't do (i.e. back track, ascend the two abseils etc.) might have resulted in a worse situation?

I don't know though. Wasn't there. Would be nice perhaps if Merddin could fill in a few details so we don't sit here speculating.

One thing worth mentioning is the deteriorating state of the ropes in Croesor - but that's probably something for another thread.

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Thre was someone on DP asking for advice about the CRTT a couple of weeks ago. I was quite suprised at some of the advice given. Along the lines of "a piece of cake" etc etc. I must admit, I have never done it, only heard about it. "Piece of cake" type comments don't tally with what I have heard of it! Some of the comments/advice sounded down right irresponsible to me!

Technically it's not actually particularly challenging. But it is daunting, with a lot of scope to go very wrong if you didn't know what you were doing. Ropework-wise though there are much more complicated trips out there.

Although I'll qualify that by saying it's no longer that challenging.

When it was first done, it would have been a far different trip. Un-known, un-rigged and far, far bolder. It also took a slightly different route; and that, together with the more recent collapse that took out the ladder bridge, highlights part of the problem with the place...

I doubt many groups that go through (but I'm not suggesting anybody doesn't have a right to do the trip) will have a plan for if they find they can't get out of Rhosydd, or if a bidge had collapsed, or if they found one of the ropes to be unsafe to descend (it won't be long before that's the case - it seems to be something of an anomaly that one of the worst places for ropes (i.e. Welsh slate mines full of sharp edges) appears to be the most likely place you find a fixed rope in-situ).

The route is almost impossible to loose; until you're in Rhosydd, where if you didn't know the way you might struggle to find the number 9 adit. But if it was daylight you'd see pretty much immediately which chamber you could ascend out of.

However I entirely agree with ChrisJC (and Chris has far more right to pass comment on this trip than I do - he was one of the very early ones, some of us have only known it in it's current rigged state). It's not a trip to be taken lightly and it probably will be the cause of another rescue one day. Hopefully that one won't be to somebody who's been fed some dodgy advice about how 'easy' it is, and hopefully they won't be hurt.

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On the subject of early trip reports of the CRTT and just how much more of an undertaking it was then I've just uploaded two PDFs of an article which I think was from Climber magazine from around (again I think) 1989 to 1991.

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Croesor-Slate-Mine/3-Men-+-1-Dinghy-Page-1.pdf 

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Croesor-Slate-Mine/3-Men-+-1-Dinghy-Page-2.pdf 

There is also a very good write up by John Knowles, if you've got access to CATMHS newsletters, detailing the earlier explorations and some terrifying sounding exploration of the trip in reverse on a lower floor.

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I'm the person that said it was a piece of cake on Darkplaces and i stand by that comment...it is an easy trip...its neither technically challanging nor particularly arduous
That doesn't mean to say...that like every underground trip it shouldn't be aproached with a degree of seriousness...IE: Carrying some gear in case fixed aids are removed/unsafe having some basic self rescue kit (pulley/spare jammer etc) and the ability to use it and the common sense to turn back if you reach a point where you feel if you go any further your ability to get back to the surface is compromised...

Thre was someone on DP asking for advice about the CRTT a couple of weeks ago...

It's not that person - I've exchanged messages with them and that trip is not planned until November. I have sent them the survey and - coincidentally - the trip report that SimonRL has provided a link to.

I'm the person that said it was a piece of cake on Darkplaces and i stand by that comment...it is an easy trip...its neither technically challanging nor particularly arduous

Not a piece of cake to you, JB, but the massively increased public awareness of the trip has made is accessible to people who treat it without the respect that it deserves - and indeed accessible to some do not have the necessary experience for it.

There's a video on YouTube made by a caving club that goes on about goblins (or something similar) that gives the trip a glossy, fun, themepark feel and in my opinion those people have been damned irresponsible in posting it. Indeed, the trip is not technically difficult, but it can bite - as this has proved.

For my part, I've always worried that the trip is going to harm someone: Croesor is an unstable old mine, not a (relatively) more stable natural cavern. Indeed, the first part of the trip has been created by a massive roof-fall which happened in 1932 (?) and the way out at the Rhosydd end was effectively blocked by a series of falls in the 1990s.

More recently, the hole in the floor in Croesor collapsed about five years ago; the ladder bridge was taken out by a roof-fall; MountainPenguin (?) has witnessed a lump of roof falling in the Chamber of Horrors; while a roof-fall in the first chamber came very close to killing two people a while back.

Thus, whilst the trip itself may be "neither technically challenging nor particularly arduous", that's not to say there isn't a risk due to the environment it's in.

Add to that the fact that you need to be prepared for two 80' abseils after perhaps 6 hours underground and some reason for coming back that was unexpected and you have a recipe for cave rescue getting called out. As indeed has happened.

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I don't diasagree with what you are saying...its just common sense...its a Slate Mine so its bound to be unstable...if you're not smart enough to realise that in advance...the walk across the first big chamber will be enough to remind you...the present floor is the previous roof...enough to remind anyone that it needs treating with a certain amount of respect...
There can obviously be problems en route if the situation with the fixed aids has changed or if the topography of the mine has been altered by collapses...but that is just more proof that people should go no further than their ability to return to the surface allows...
Realistically anyone that abseils down a rope that they don't know 100% that they can prussick back up is just asking for trouble...
I don't believe telling people its a tough trip (when in actual fact its not) contributes to making it safer...in fact the opposite...surely complacency will set in if people go along believing its going to be difficult and then find its just a meander...they are likely to just "switch off" to any potential hazards...

Agreed!

The thing is, a lot of people who do the trip may be experienced in caves, but not in mines and while slate mines are relatively safe environments, they do have few peculiarities.

Realistically anyone that abseils down a rope that they don't know 100% that they can prussick back up is just asking for trouble...

This is indeed the nub of it!

I don't believe telling people its a tough trip (when in actual fact its not) contributes to making it safer...in fact the opposite...surely complacency will set in if people go along believing its going to be difficult and then find its just a meander...they are likely to just "switch off" to any potential hazards...

Playing Devil's advocate, I'd suggest that not making people aware of the potential risks may lead to complacency and not taking it seriously, for example, setting out to do the trip at 4pm and knowing that you're likely to have to find the way out without the benefit of daylight streaming into the chambers.

Having been on a trip that finished at around 10pm and had some navigational issues on a dark and misty hillside, I'd say that even if you've done it before, there can still be surprises.

As the Scouts' motto says: Be Prepared!

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I don't diasagree with what you are saying...its just common sense...its a Slate Mine so its bound to be unstable...

There are degrees of instability.

There can obviously be problems en route if the situation with the fixed aids has changed or if the topography of the mine has been altered by collapses...but that is just more proof that people should go no further than their ability to return to the surface allows...
Realistically anyone that abseils down a rope that they don't know 100% that they can prussick back up is just asking for trouble...

Which, and NOI, isn't really consistent with telling people who you may, or may not know (and certainly may not know others reading) that it's a piece of cake...

I don't believe telling people its a tough trip (when in actual fact its not) contributes to making it safer...in fact the opposite...surely complacency will set in if people go along believing its going to be difficult and then find its just a meander...they are likely to just "switch off" to any potential hazards...

Surely an accurate description of the route is all that's needed. No hyped flowery descriptions designed to make the (present day) indivudual look a hero, or casual dismissal of clear and apparent dangers.

Hell, we could even mention that from a mining history point of view there are some interesting things to see in Croesor. The supported wall bridges, point work, ladders, cat walks, some evidence of the overhead electric system for the locos.

But I guess that's not the point is it 😞

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Hell, we could even mention that from a mining history point of view there are some interesting things to see in Croesor. The supported wall bridges, point work, ladders, cat walks, some evidence of the overhead electric system for the locos.

But I guess that's not the point is it

Certainly not the point if we are discussing safety, equipment and route finding...
Exactly the point if we are describing things to enjoy en route or the history of the mine...but i suspect that`s a completely different thread to Rescue on the Croesor Rhosydd Through Trip

Hell, we could even mention that from a mining history point of view there are some interesting things to see in Croesor. The supported wall bridges, point work, ladders, cat walks, some evidence of the overhead electric system for the locos.

But I guess that's not the point is it

Certainly not the point if we are discussing safety, equipment and route finding...
Exactly the point if we are describing things to enjoy en route or the history of the mine...but i suspect that`s a completely different thread to Rescue on the Croesor Rhosydd Through Trip

Sure, agreed, but we were crossing the line into describing the place to others. But as you say this isn't a discussion about that.

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Certainly not the point if we are discussing safety, equipment and route finding...

Exactly the point if we are describing things to enjoy en route or the history of the mine...but i suspect that`s a completely different thread to Rescue on the Croesor Rhosydd Through Trip

Oh I don't know... 🙂

The point may be that the Croesor-Rhosydd trip is now unfortunately regarded as a "sport caving" trip, or some sort of via ferrata in the dark - which is something of a shame given what's actually there.

I'm loathe to suggest installing some wee signs pointing towards the way out... 😠

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