http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-10990149 

The article makes it sound so easy, Drill down 5km, send water down and then suck up superheated steam - simple!
and within 2 years from Drilling to power production.

I know this has been discussed before, but thought people would like to have an update.

---

hot rocks have got a lot to answer for, my first drilling job was roughnecking for Kenting Drilling at Rosemanowse....

---

Is it Mr Hunt? After coming home are you?

Looking at the link to the spangly super-duper eco-generation-sustainable-development-new paradigm-forward thinking-innovative-customer focussed website, it seems Laws is a man of calibre indeed and looking at his CV, who would doubt him?

I have a couple of grinding points which I can't seem to get my head around. I wonder if they will "secure funding" before looking at the actual feasibility of the project.

Here are my snags I can see with it:-

1. United Downs Hot Lode. It's in the way. It underlies that way and the workings are pretty large below there. To boot, there are the continued and plans-suggest other workings at a shallower level (Harvey's lodes). This seems to suggest that unless they sleeve the bores, they will merely be pumping water around in the Hot Lode.

2. I'm sure that this must have been looked at, considering the huge prowess of Dr Laws, but I'm not sure if their basic thermodynamics adds up. He's talking about some pretty big figures and I'm sure the old Q=UA LMTD still applies, which states that the heat available to be transferred is proportional to the overall Heat Transfer Coefficient x the area available for heat to be exchanged, x the log of the mean temp difference.

I have a feeling that since rock, whilst having a good capacity for heat, has a shocking HTC, which means that you get a cool skin on it, thus causing a huge drop off in extractable values. To get around this, you need a combination of huge heat (check, at that depth) and large surface area. I have a feeling, unless he has a crystal ball, which suggests the ground is as fractured as some serious fresh fault breccia, it's a total and utter non-starter. I have a feeling that "getting" this area was the problem with the last lot.

I know my heart pumps **** for suggesting such a thing, but I see it more of a "How can we abstract money in the lines of Smit, Wave Hub, Windymills, CO2 hysteria, etc, etc?".

I reckon they know the story and their plausibility is increased by their credibility.

Snake Oil by another name.

Having said, hats off to them. The name of the game is making money and I'm sure a good story ill see the bum-chums get a load of cash in each others pockets, without even lifting a drill.

Sorry to be cynical. :glare:

Oh Stuey, you are a Cynic! Of course you may be right, but I don't you are. The technology has come a long way since Hot Rocks and is active use in many places around the world.

From what I have seen the plan is to case the first 250m of the hole, which I dare say would be extended if necessary - bearing in mind without a mud return it will not be possible to drill the hole.

Although Mr Laws strikes me as your typical PR type, the interesting thing is where the funding is coming from and the team that will be designing and constructing the system.

The principle engineers are OVE Arup who are one of the worlds largest engineering consultants and they are also part funding the project.

Tony Batchelor from Geoscience is on the board of the company, he is a man of great knowledge, experience and a successful track record.

The drilling engineer was previously Shells Chief Drilling Engineer, so certainly knows a lot about deep drilling.

Ultimately time will tell, but bear in mind the massive Feed in Tariffs for wind and solar are not available for Geothermal, although the government have provided a £1.5 Million grant.

I fully expect to see a rather large drilling rig on site by next summer, but we will see.

Being that the plan is drill down 5km, I guess no-one has test drilled the area? So I guess all info is based on Siesmic surveys ?
I am not a geologist but does that give enough info on faults and how likely the rock is to fracture?
Whether it is a success or not, it will be interesting to see some deep drilling in Cornwall and what they find.

---

The planning granted is for one test hole, with the actual plant to follow if successful, so this is the test hole. The hole will be vertical for 4.5km, with a 1km long horizontal tail, which I guess if they struggle to get a naturals flow they will try shattering with HE, which is the risky bit as that is where the Rosemanowes project failed as after blasting they struggles to get a return, they overblasted the rock.

phoned them up and asked if they had any jobs coming up and was told to fcuk off ! so no jobs for us locals then! :curse: :guns:

I guess they realised it was you!

Seriously though the chances are they are going to be bringing contractors in from either Germany or Iceland and I guess the contractors may look for some local labour at the time, but until someone is awarded the contract thats not likely.

Stuey, I think that is the main issue, nobody knows what is down there, the only way anyone will find out is by sticking a drill down there, which is exactly what this planning consent is for.

It may work, it may not, its clear from the planning application that if the rock is not suitable that is the end of the project.

Because it may fail is no reason not to try, as if we do not try anything as it may fail, we may as well return to the caves.

PS Stuey what have you done with your message, you're making it look like I'm talking to myself!

How long have scientists been trying to make a working nuclear fusion reactor? Have they failed or is it they have not succeeded yet?

Hot rocks at Rosemanowes was not a million miles from success, if exactly the same mistakes are made then somebody needs a damn good rogering, because that is what mistakes are about - learning.

These men are all fantastic experts in their fields with huge amounts of experience and success. However, if they are hoping that the rock is fractured sufficiently, that's a long shot. Getting the required degree of fracture WILL be a problem as bumped into on lots of occasions.

I'm interested in renewable energy to the degree that I've read a fair bit about it. Obviously, I know next to nothing, compared to these experts, but the maths with all of them is pretty easy to get a handle on and estimate orders of size. I've spent some time teaching both the maths of heat exchangers and various renewable energy stuff. A lot of it doesn't add up and in some places, the dust-dust analyses of the things are eyebrow raising indeed.

Granite has a particularly low HTC for rock (IIRC) and they are going to need a HUGE area in order to pull those sorts of values. We are talking a bloody huge area. If they are aiming to fracture this with explosives, they'll need a tip as big as United Downs to put their dynamite box empties.

If I get sufficiently bored later, I'll plug some numbers into some equations.

It's such a shame as renewable energy/heat abstraction on the cheap is a fantastic thing, but I feel that the realities of a lot of it are figure skewing scientists and snake oil salesmen seeking to line their own nests on the back of the popular funding surrounding it. Witness the CRU, NOAA and IPCC punting utter unscientific non-data driven drivel about CO2 and how dead polar bears will be floating up the Tamar if we don't act now. Will someone think of the children!!!!!!!

Time will tell Stuey, Mr Laws may be a snake oil salesman, I personally think he's a front man as he seems the sort of person who would be well recieved at the highest levels, governments aren't great at listening to engineers for some reason, I guess because we are not good at translating practicalities into languages they understand.

If you go to Dave and explain to him the principles of heat transfer in rock, when he shows you the door to Downing Street he will shut the door wipe his brow, ask his nearest aide what that loony was talking about, ask for a cup of tea and thats the last he will ever think of it.

Laws appears to be very very well qualified indeed, not just as a frontman.

I think this will be coming along on an episode of "The Hustle" soon.

I totally agree Stuey, he is very well qualified, but engineering qualifications are very strange things, some engineers are better doers, some are better talkers.

You can draw a parallel with Trevithick v Boulton & Watt. Watt was a good engineer with lots of access to the corridors of power especially through Boulton. Trevithick was a fantastic practical engineer and didn't have the same access - who was the most successful engineer? I certainly don't think the best engineer was. We don't measure power in Trevithicks or Newcomens do we?

Mr laws strikes me as more of Your Watt type character, however he seems to have found a way of working with the Trevithick types, that is a potentially potent mix and could spell great things.

Of course it may lead to nothing.

I'd like to think they had a good chance of success. It would be a great thing for Cornwall. I do wish them all the best.

I just can't help thinking that getting the required area is the impossible hurdle. That is an enormous challenge in many ways. If you did get the right sort of explosives in place, how would you set it off in that kind of pressure/heat?

If they pulled it off, it would be a Nobel prize job. IMO

I suppose it's no dafter than some of the things that have had money spent on them...


It's a common problem, the tension between the expectations of the local population and the actual requirements of a project of that sort. I've seen plenty of it on pipeline sites; a huge project appears, often amid a good deal of publicity about the number of jobs to be available.

what actually happens is that a travelling workforce of specialists appears and takes those jobs, because;

(1) that's what they do for a living

(2) the local workforce often doesn't have the right skills

(3) the project requires the complete efforts and commitment, frequently for relatively short periods, at a time of their choosing and without regard for anything else that may be going on locally

(4) the incoming contract workforce don't need to concern themselves with maintaining their local customers or employers after the project is complete

---

Hi Guys!
Back after a long absence from the site. got a new PC too so I just need to catch up.
Anyway..... on the subject of HE for hole over 4 K's down I dare say it will be something exotic based around PETN or the like. I cant see them shoving a coulpe of tonnes of submarine blasting gelatine down the hole... think of the length of the charging stick for a start!!!
Seriously though, the Rosemanowes project used a gel to hydraulicaly open the blast fissures and extend the shatter zone. whether this is in the minds of the present 'adventurers' I'm not sure. When the 'Hotrocks' Project was running I did hear a tale/rumour that they found a bacteria down there that was munching the gel they were pumping in. mmmmmm yum!
Strange to think of anything existing at that depth/pressure/temperature, in solid rock.
I suppose they will be drilling down into the flanks of the Carn Marth granite mass and hoping for some super high temperatures, but as Stuey rightly points out the HTC of granite would demand some stupendous temperatures to sustain a constant usefull output after the initial superheated peak.

---

A further thought ....by the time the water gets to the shattered zone it will have picked up quite a bit of heat along the way and so the chilling effect would be minimised to a large degree. So that would need to be included in the maths to effectively calculate the output. Hmmmmmmmmm!

---

2 ticks...... is it just me or is the bit of land (above the hot lode) for sale????

Have they pulled out?

OOPS! ...... If they have, was it Mr Cameron or revised mathematics...? :glare:

---