Holme Bank problems - please stay away

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AR
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie Topic Starter

8 years ago

I've just received an email from Jenny Potts, and this info has also been posted on UK Caving, but please could everyone take note of this and avoid HB until DCA/Chatsworth can get this resolved?

The owner of nearby Holme Hall is now refusing ALL access to Holme Bank Mine, regardless of which entrance is used.

He insists that Joe Oldfield does not own the land next to Entrance 2 and has no right to grant access via this entrance, despite DCA being advised that Mr. Oldfield does have this right. The Holme Hall owner confronted a group of cavers on Saturday, 15th. April, refused all permission to enter the mine by any entrance and insisted that they leave. He made a number of unfounded allegations about the behaviour of cavers in general and instructed parties; he also threatened to call the police.

DCA is taking up the matter urgently with Chatsworth Estates, who are understood to own the land around the site.

DCA will seek to resolve this situation as quickly as possible but, in the mean time, we have to reluctantly suggest that cavers avoid visiting the mine so that there is no risk of a confrontation with the owner of Holme Hall.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Secretary

Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!

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ttxela
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

Thanks for the Info AR. I was actually considering visiting there in the near future but will now make other plans.

mistericeman
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

I wonder if that is linked to the blocking of the top entrance in the old quarry (Was a section of boiler/iron tube )that is now covered by a new section of drystone wall and earth .

Pete K
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

Not in any way. The DCA (me and Pete Mellors) did that on Chatsworth's request as the access was forever being vandalised and it was a really very unsafe route to have kids able to crawl in.

Not seen the sun for months. Now evolving to see in the dark.

Pete K
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

Also, it's a heck of a lot more sealed than dry stone walling. Think concrete and welding. It's just faced sympathetically.

Not seen the sun for months. Now evolving to see in the dark.

mistericeman
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

Ahhh Just wondered as it used to be a nice way to exit on a cold evening as the warm (er) air from inside used to condense in the cold air in a massive plume in certain conditions.

Paul Marvin
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

I was loaned a old booklet by somebody in the row of cottages which had some very interesting reading, which I copied and sent to Joe at the office.

It states in there in black and white that " the mineral rights in the AREA are owed by the duke of devonshire ".

I am also led to believe and I think Roy Fellows will also say that who owns the mineral rights owns the mine .... period.

Has anybody actually asked the guy at holme hall to produce documentation proving ownership ??

"I Dont Know Where I am Going, But When I Get There I will Know Where I am"

J25GTi
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

:bored:

"Paul Marvin" wrote:
I was loaned a old booklet by somebody in the row of cottages which had some very interesting reading, which I copied and sent to Joe at the office.

It states in there in black and white that " the mineral rights in the AREA are owed by the duke of devonshire ".

I am also led to believe and I think Roy Fellows will also say that who owns the mineral rights owns the mine .... period.

Has anybody actually asked the guy at holme hall to produce documentation proving ownership ??

He may own the mine, but the land it is on and you have to cross may be a completely different matter....

Paul Marvin
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

at the bottom maybe but if he owns the rest why does oldfield design pay chatsworth estate rent and not this guy ???

"I Dont Know Where I am Going, But When I Get There I will Know Where I am"

Paul Marvin
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

#10

Yep it cant be difficult to establish I just dont think it is very high up on chatsworth list

"I Dont Know Where I am Going, But When I Get There I will Know Where I am"

royfellows
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

#11

Together with the usual mineral ownership conveyance description all "all mines and minerals" is the implied ancillary right, reinforced by case law, of rights over the land. To drive levels, sink shafts, lay roads, erect buildings and dump spoil, never mind ordinary access. Obviously rights can be delegated.

I know nothing about this area, so mineral ownership could be Manorial or retained after a severance, or whatever.

My avatar is a poor likeness.

AR
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie Topic Starter

8 years ago

#12

It's manorial - although parish boundaries have changed, the majority of Holme Bank falls within the old manor of Ashford, which has been in Cavendish hands since the 16th century.

Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!

royfellows
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

#13

Ouch

I would have to check my case law but that could not be in our favour.

My avatar is a poor likeness.

Paul Marvin
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

#14

I have just spoken to Joe who was not aware of saturdays events and he is going to contact Chatsworth, who are also not aware.

"I Dont Know Where I am Going, But When I Get There I will Know Where I am"

LeeW
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

#15

Did both Holme Bank and Holme Hall become one mine? Yes I know underground they are merged.

And are they claiming ownership of both mines?

Although I think access issues to the mine(s) was raised a few months ago

I went in a mine once.... it was dark and scary..... full of weirdos

When do I get my soapbox, I need to rant on about some b***cks

Paul Marvin
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

#16

On the document that I have now sent Jo it states " the minerals in the area are owned by the duke of devonshire "🅱

"I Dont Know Where I am Going, But When I Get There I will Know Where I am"

royfellows
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

#17

The extent of those rights lies in the wording which should be accurately reproduced in the Land Registry entry which should, if the manorial mineral owners wished to preserve those rights on subsequent land sales, have been registered by October 2013.

Manorial rights may not even include the right to enter the land, please note the word "may".

I suggest a registry search by someone.

My avatar is a poor likeness.

AR
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie Topic Starter

8 years ago

#18

I think Chatsworth do own the land to the west and north of Holme Hall; the nearest farm (set back from the Hassop Station road) is painted in their colours and they definitely own the old quarry where the back entrances are.

Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!

mikehiggins
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

#19

Just to save anyone else doing it, the Land Registry search has already been done. DCA has the documentation and is trying to resolve the issues.

Pete K
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

8 years ago

#20

Holme Bank Mine access update

DCA's Legal & Insurance Officer has been in touch with Joe Oldfield and he is agreeable for cavers to use his office car park at weekends and weekday evenings to help prevent further confrontations with the owner of Holme Hall. It means cavers can park and change out of sight of the Holme Hall entrance. Note the concession does not apply during weekday office hours.

If you do this, please only use Entrance 2, which is just behind Joe Oldfield's office (do not try to use Entrance 1 which is closer to Holme Hall).

Thanks to Joe Oldfield for his help, which will at least allow limited access for the present. DCA is still working to regain full access to Holme Bank Chert Mine but it is proving problematic.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.

Not seen the sun for months. Now evolving to see in the dark.