When people ask me about the dangers, I ask them how many people get hurt exploring caves and mines compared to traffic accidents involving pedestrians. Raised eyebrows all round.

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When people ask me about the dangers, I ask them how many people get hurt exploring caves and mines compared to traffic accidents involving pedestrians. Raised eyebrows all round.

I used to quote the skiing accident statistics, same reaction. 😉

You could refine this down even further, how many people get killed caving compared to exploring mines.

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You could refine this down even further, how many people get killed caving compared to exploring mines.

To the best of my Knowledge, 1 person dead in (Not caused by) a Mine, if You exclude uninformed persons entering, and accidental falls down shafts by walkers etc. And that with an existing condition of Pneumonia before he went in. It's not exactly a subject I dwell on too much, so I may be wrong.

I do try to explain to the Missus, but it doesn't help that there were a string of accidents (Chile, NZ, Gleision) that were very public not that long ago, and refusing to come with us to see for herself. Having tried "Potholing" years ago, she is convinced it's like that, despite the pictures I bring back of Slate Chambers that could fit our house in several times over. I can't get her to changer her opinion, but she does realise that for a change, I'm sensible when I go underground.

She was really surprised at the BCA insurance though, and I suspect it helps a little knowing that there is an "official" company offering this. I think she was more surprised I took it out, considering my opinion of most insurance companies :lol:

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Risk is a very subjective thing and dependent on how you define it. Mine exploration of any sort is a dangerous thing be it surface or UG as you are by virtue of the hobby putting yourself in harms way... however because you know the risks and dangers and in my opinion we are mostly a responsible lot the danger perceived within the our interest is negligeable to us ... yet I certainly percieve other hobbies as way more dangerous like skiing for example.... yet I know 3 skiers all of whom have had bad injuries and many near misses who think our hobby is down right f**king mad (as one described it) ... yet I know dozens of you guys and I only can remember 2 incidents of injury in all my years on here.....
Perceived risk and real risk are totally different... trouble is the Elf an safety mob (and others), love to play on the perceived risk to the public in order to get their way these days!

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"When you get the grill off you could use it as a barbie.

Claret would go well with the bats, and Chardonnay with the landowners pheasants.
Teach em to block our mines, grrr "

I wonder if the caving club people who were declined BCA equipped exclusive access will join the angle grinder gang, or the "nevermind, we have some good photos" gang.

I am a big fan of "the third way".

If it were my mine, and I read comments like that, I'd just order another load of concrete.

Chris.

I quite agree chris its too much to hope that someone connected with drayton estates is not monitoring the online forums, after reading such comments as that who can honestly blame there actions. It makes the efforts of people like rusty, roy or anyone whos attempted to converse with drayton totally defunked. :thumbdown:

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A joke is just a joke, nothing more.

The decision to grill the entrances was taken as the 'easy option' right from the start. Consideration of the various proposals, one of which was as watertight as could possibly be, was a mere window dressing.

There are a lot of agrieved people out there, and no wonder at it.

Truth out.

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What we need is proper representation. For instance the British Caving Association might be of help to negotiate an access agreement. As I understand, being a member of the BCA provides personal insurance. So a landowner - who gives permission to enter their land - is protected against any accident occurring on their land and they will therefore not be liable.

What is the curerent situation in that part of the world? 🙂

Read my posting of 4th Feb.
The Drayton people are just not interested.

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After much hard work put in by Roy and myself the estate feel that the situation regarding liability is not 100% water tight. This is their opinion after looking into the matter with both their Insurers and their H&S advisers. After much consultation I feel the best way forward is to ask permission for a mine inspector to visit and assess the mines stability and safety. I am waiting to hear what the inspectors remit would be and the cost of such an exercise before approaching the estate with the option. Obviously any costs incurred would have to be met by those wishing to enter the mine. The estate would make no monitory gain from opening the mines and as such is not prepared to lay out any expenditure. (this is quite understandable).
In the mean time Drayton Estate have stated that anyone caught trespassing will be dealt with. ::)

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I think you will be hard pushed to find a competent person to say that an abadoned mine is "safe". This could well be an expensive dead end.

To illustrate the point, a few weeks ago I found myself in the following situation: A TV company wanted to film in a Tamar Valley mine. I was going along as a member of a local caving club. In my opinion, as a mine explorer, I considered the mine to be safe having explored it on a number of occaisons.

A couple of days before filming I received a phone call asking me to "sign the mine off". I promptly informed them that I was not prepared say the mine was in any way safe or take any responsibility for a mine that had received no proffesional attention since 1925.

The point I am trying to make is what is acceptable and safe to a mine explorer able to make an informed desision probably would not be considered safe by anyone giving a proffesional opinion. Given the potential liability most proffesionals would err on the side of extreme caution.

Given the potential liability most proffesionals would err on the side of extreme caution.

Which is where the Drayton Estates Health and Safety advisors will be coming from.

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Re air, ironstone mines have more in common with coal mines than they do with relatively friendly slate or metal mines. Can't imagine any inspector would pass an ironstone mine for use as either a working mine or a 'leisure' mine without proper ventilation in place.

After much hard work put in by Roy and myself the estate feel that the situation regarding liability is not 100% water tight. This is their opinion after looking into the matter with both their Insurers and their H&S advisers. After much consultation I feel the best way forward is to ask permission for a mine inspector to visit and assess the mines stability and safety. I am waiting to hear what the inspectors remit would be and the cost of such an exercise before approaching the estate with the option. Obviously any costs incurred would have to be met by those wishing to enter the mine. The estate would make no monitory gain from opening the mines and as such is not prepared to lay out any expenditure. (this is quite understandable).
In the mean time Drayton Estate have stated that anyone caught trespassing will be dealt with. ::)

If you haven't already speak to the BCA about access becoming an access controlling body. IIRC the annual insurance is a fairly small amount - much cheaper than getting the mine inspector involved, which usually is only requried if you're looking to get an approved route for centre or paying group use.

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After much hard work put in by Roy and myself the estate feel that the situation regarding liability is not 100% water tight. This is their opinion after looking into the matter with both their Insurers and their H&S advisers. After much consultation I feel the best way forward is to ask permission for a mine inspector to visit and assess the mines stability and safety. I am waiting to hear what the inspectors remit would be and the cost of such an exercise before approaching the estate with the option. Obviously any costs incurred would have to be met by those wishing to enter the mine. The estate would make no monitory gain from opening the mines and as such is not prepared to lay out any expenditure. (this is quite understandable).
In the mean time Drayton Estate have stated that anyone caught trespassing will be dealt with. ::)

You won't get the Mines Inspector to approve a route, apart from not being his job its not a working mine either. What you need is a mine engineer however that really only applies if you go down the route of local Caves Mines Leadership. If the estate were willing to consider if an inspection were carried out you should talk to Dave Carlisle although you would need to pay a fee if he were to put his name against a report.

Mike

Have you considered setting up a body/ group/trust to lease the mine from the Estate? If nothing else it would transfer liability which seems to be the big stumbling block.

If you went down this route would the BCA insurance be robust enough to cover your back?

I guess Roy is probably the man to talk to if you consider this option.

Yes, have now been informed of the inspector route and realise this is highly unlikely to sway the landowner.
As for leasing the mines, this has been briefly discussed with the estate and objections raised, but this is an avenue which is still to be investigated further, along with other proposals. There is no moss on this stone but unfortunately these things take time and if I constantly approach the estate with every little idea that springs to mind I will soon get the order of the boot. I need to formulate definite proposals with all bases covered(if possible) and several ideas at a time for them to cogitate over.
If anyone else feels they wanted to contact the estate themselves then by all means feel free.

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Sent you a PM

I've heard that all dialogue with the landowner has now ceased. Can anyone confirm this. It is a sad day when people stop talking. I am also told a 360 excavator has been seen in the vicinity of Church Mine but no details were known of it's purpose.

I'm sad to say that my last communication was sent to the estate over a month ago and so far has been completely ignored. I must draw the conclusion that they have taken the matter as closed. And yes a 360 excavator has been in the locality but to what ends I have no idea. I may be reading more into this than is actually true but on at least two occasions the estate manager has seen me and appears to have taken avoiding action. I assume he doesn't wish to engage in dialogue.
Well such is life I guess.

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